I was talking with someone recently and they said that if I am going to do a pad change, it would be a good idea to do a rotor swap for those particular pads otherwise the track pads will just glaze because they aren't set for the rotors. Is there any truth to this?
My plan is to run a ceramic pad like the Durastop/Raybesto's for the street and then switch to a peformance pad like a Carbotech or PFC for the track. Can I run both sets of pads on the same rotors or am I just setting myself up for problems at the track?
I use the Carbotech pads with my stock rotors for track events. Get the ones for all out racing. Panther Plus I think. I can't remember off hand. Anyway, just follow the pad seating instructions. I use my car mostly for track and don't bother switching back and forth. I don't think it would be a problem. I run mostly CMSP , the worse track there is for eating brakes. I get about 4 or 5 track days per set. The most important thing is to cross torque your wheels, 60 then 80 then to 100 ft lbs. Also check your torque between track sessions. When you switch back to street pads, remember to re seat the pads by not making any sudden or hard stops for the firs few drives.
David
When you switch pads you have to re bed them. This won't hurt the rotors.
I must be getting some misinformation then. I was told that if I keep the same rotors, but switch pads, I'll just end up glazing the pads because the rotors are already run in with the stock pads. I guess I'll listen to you guys instead. I just don't want to have any problems because Road America is VERY tough on brakes too from what I hear.
BTW.. How long does it take to run in a set of pads? This very same guy was saying 500 miles. Is this not correct also?
I'll through in a confirmation of what you have heard just to keep you confused.
I have been told by technicians at a racing brake retailer that when you bed a pad in, some of the material from the pad becomes embedded in the face of the rotor. They say you will lose some performance if you bed in a rotor with one type of pad and then switch to another.
This does make some sense to me, but I have never tested to confirm it. I would assume that this becomes more pronounced with racing pads like I am using as they give off material faster.
I do keep my rotors and pads matched for that reason. Overkill maybe.
For near street pads as you are using, I probably wouldn't bother and just rebed in the rotors with the new pads.
FYI, Carbotech makes a great serious track pad, Panther XP9 front, XP8 rear. I have never used the Panther Plus which is an intermediary pad like Hawk plus.
I have swapped pads many many times. I doesn't take 500 miles to bed them in. Do you get 100% instantly no but if you do some good stops from 80 it doesn't take long. Unless the rotors look carved out not a problem. I've even done it then too.
OK, Sub Driver has the right pads. Bedding Racing pads can be done the night before you track in no time at all. Just a matter of making a series of stops from escalating speeds and letting the pads and rotors cool. Your first track session should be in moderation. The full instructions on bedding comes with the pads.
Embeded material in the rotors might be a consideration but I really don't think it has any practical effect in a DE event. I work my brakes hard I mean really hard and the Carbotechs have never let me down. Don't forget the brake fluid. Motul 600 works great and is compatable with Dot 3, so the change over is not a big deal.
David
Originally posted by speedpup I have swapped pads many many times. I doesn't take 500 miles to bed them in. Do you get 100% instantly no but if you do some good stops from 80 it doesn't take long. Unless the rotors look carved out not a problem. I've even done it then too.
I agree with that.
Since you are going to need new rotors eventually just get another set now and keep the track pads with the same set of rotors and the street pads with their set of rotors. Stock rotors are only $50 each and it is a good idea to take a spare rotor to the track anyway.
You would then have a set for a spare if needed.
Also, the track rotors look pretty bad with scoring and the paint burns off the hat area. You might not want that look on the street setup.
Dave
I swap back and forth all the time. As DJ said, all you need to do is re-bed them. There is absolutely no reason to get new rotors for a pad change. If you are tracking the car, it is of course a good idea to keep spare rotors and pads on hand in case of an emergency, but besides that, no harm done.
If you need help with factory, Baer, or Powerslot rotors and Hawk, Carbotech, or Raybestos (identical but less expensive than GM Durastop ceramics) please give us a look.
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I kind of like the idea of having the extra set of rotors to match the pads. That way I would have an extra set of rotors on hand in case I had some problems at the track. Plus, like Corvette Dave said, the track rotors will probably look nastier than the street rotors. Now.. Where do I find a set of rotors for $50 each? I thought they were more like $70 each?
I would like to go with the Raybesto's ceramic for the street and the Carbotech XP8/XP9 combo for the track. I figure that since I would like to run a set of pads for the street and track, I would like to go with a more agressive pad like the Carbotech XP series. Is there a problem with going with a more dedicated race pad over an intermediate type pad if I don't happen to push my car as hard as some of you on the track? Why would someone go with an intermediate pad over a race pad? Something to drive on the track and street?
So.. The consensus is that I DON'T have to change rotors if I want to swap something like the Raybesto's/Durastop ceramic pads and the Carbotech XP8/9's. I just want to be sure.
I have upgraded fluid already. I'm running the ATE Super Blue right now. I thought about the Motul or ATE fluid, but went with the Super Blue because I heard that it was a better fluid for both track and street use. I know it's much better than stock though. I ran the car originally with the stock fluid and had a mushy pedal when I was done with the first track day. After a harder day with the ATE Super Blue, my pedal is fine.
The XP pads are too aggressive for intermediate level driving. They take a lot of heat to get working properly, the kind of heat that you typically can only generate on a track either that has a lot of braking zones or one where you are going very fast and have to slow down lots for a slow turn. If that is the case, go with Carbotech Panther Plus until you are driving it hard enough to generate those types of temperatures.
ATE super blue (or the amber equivalent) is very good fluid. Unless you are running races, I don't see a need to spend more money on the fancier fluids with higher wet boiling points. If you get more serious about track, take the car to a GM dealer and have them do a full brake fluid flush using the Tech2 to get ALL the fluid out and ATE back in.
Consider doing synthetic transmission fluid as well; the car has terrible tranny cooling and needs as much help as it can get.
Hope this helps. Let us know if you have any more questions.
Rpallas,
Just to try to simplify things for you. I want to relate my experience for you. It may not work for anyone else but has done well for me and I'm not all that good a driver. I run my car almost exclusively on the track. I get on the road with it about once a week just to stay warmed up. Keep the heel toe downshifts smooth etc.
Rotors, stock. Carry a spare front and back.
Brake Fluid Motul 600. It is compatable with stock fluid. You don't have to flush the system. I bleed after every track event.
Pads: Carbotech XP's. I think they are ideal for any level of driving on the track. They do not have to be "hot" to stop you. They build and disipate heat very quickly. They work fine on the street, little rough and noisy and turn your rims black. So on cruise night you don't want to be squeeling to a stop everytime.
Transmission Fluid: Redline D4. Your car will shift better. I was having trouble downshifting into third until C4/C5specialist put me onto the Red line.
Other issues are of course the Oil Temp and Trans Temp thing.
I use a DRM Oil cooler/Rad. I'll probable add the trans cooler next since in mid summer, I'll get the Trans warning light.
OK, thats what you want to do. Use the XP's on the track and the ceramics on the street. The XP,s are all out racing pads. But this heat thing is a non issue. The pad has the ability to build and dissapate heat quickly. When you mash hard heat builds quickly and you stop quickly. You don't have to be running hot to make them work. On the street they squeel and rummble at low temps but they will stop you safely as long as you are not doing anything stupid. If you drive to the track, put them on before you leave. You will quickly get the feel for how they will stop you when cold. It's like pulling a trailer, allow yourself a little extra stopping distance until you get used to it.
If people like Sub Driver are using them for all out competion in T-1, I can assure you, you would be hard pressed to get a better track pad.
OK, thats what you want to do. Use the XP's on the track and the ceramics on the street. The XP,s are all out racing pads. But this heat thing is a non issue. The pad has the ability to build and dissapate heat quickly. When you mash hard heat builds quickly and you stop quickly. You don't have to be running hot to make them work. On the street they squeel and rummble at low temps but they will stop you safely as long as you are not doing anything stupid. If you drive to the track, put them on before you leave. You will quickly get the feel for how they will stop you when cold. It's like pulling a trailer, allow yourself a little extra stopping distance until you get used to it.
No.. No.. I'm not worried about it being enough pad. I'm worried that the XP will be too much pad for me. That's why I'm considering the Panther Plus also. I just checked prices at PFYC and the money issue is not a difference. There's only about $20 difference between the two Carbotech pads.
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