VIDEO: The Uh-Oh, this has GOT to be BAD video

[jub jub]

Russ has a valid point and I thought the same thing in the first part of the video where it's idling. Definitely looked like condensation but, in the later part of the video where you're looking at the rear of the car during hard acceleration, the apperance had more of an oil burning type look, at least to me. But, as we all know, anything is possible and without being there it is hard to give a 100% accurate diagnosis.

If it is burning coolant, wouldn't it be more prevalent on one side or another? Or does the X-pipe not permit differentiation from one side or the other? I thinking blown head gasket scenario.

Anyway, first step, do a compression check and a bleed down check and see where you're at. Then, take two shots of Jägermeister and call us in the morning.

[Millenium Z06]

Originally Posted by jub jub

I can't believe there is all this freaking discusion about the problem. After seeing the damage that was done to the cylinders the first go around I would think the problem is quite obvious.

I can't believe no one else will step in and tell Glenn what the problem is. For crying out loud, don't sugar coat it. It is what it is.

BTW Glenn, the specs that I quoted on the ring gaps are from what my engine builder set my gaps at, and those were for the top rings. The second compression rings were gapped at .017" which are close to GM specs.

Anyway, a compression check doesn't always reveal the problem. You can have poor oil control and still have good compression.

If it were me, I'd be looking for a new rotating assembly. I just sold one for $2500.00 so there are some deals out there. You just have to look for them.

I have to agree with Jub Glen; I hate to say told you so but back when all this started I thought the better course would be a new crate engine. I would not sell the car just because of this though unless it is really putting you in a financial bind. A new motor is still cheaper than another car payment but I would get a complete long block and just keep your heads. At this point I wouldn't even trust the shop to competently put your afr's on. If this turns out to be rings, I would go with a crate engine, by now it's got to be cheaper than what you're up to so far.
That looks like oil getting past the rings to me and not condensation. I thought it was condensation at first but then when you put your hand over the exhaust I could see what looked like oil spots; then when you accelerate the smoke has a blueish tint. Coolant dosent burn blue and it didn't appear to dissipate to quickly.

[GR8 WHITE]

Thanks all. Ok, so it has been a deciding factor what to do. New engine (LS7, LS3, C5R) vs new parts. But this is technically a new engine. Less than 3 years with a rebuild just 2 months ago. I am not blaming ACP (just yet) but is this something that could have been overlooked accidentally, with the deglazing and reinstalling the pistons and rings, or NO, it would have been obvious and apparent that the pistons and rings were franctions smaller? (Hence the immediate notice of oil consumption within first 2 weeks)

Will a blown head gasket cause this issue? Isn't that an easy fix?

As for my video: At first, I thought it was condensation as well, and you know hat it could be condensation. Or could have been. It was at 1800 hours, and the day was damp. The car was 2 hours cold. But when revved up, you could clearly see it was blueish tint smoke. As well as ramping it up, it is clearly blueish tint. MY car has been cold one day now, and if I crank it up, you will see a nice cloudy poof of bluish tint.

I thank you for your responses, but do I wash my hands of ACP at this point, or get the car up there to diagnose the problems first? The car must be in some working order to even get it back stateside. With this much oil burning, it will never pass inspection at all.

So, I am somewhat in a bind. A crate engine here is expensive. Ordering one is the easy part, until I discover I need differet accessories or something, and also, add about $1000 to the cost just for shipping, not to mention a 2 month shiment by truck to port then boat to Germany.

As for engine oil level: At first it was drinking one quart every 400 miles or so. Then it started to need it at 300+ miles. Just before this happened, it was requiring almost two quarts at 300 miles. Then this: Normal driving, I felt like I lost compression. As if a spark plug wire had been pulled off. Car was sputtering to gain speed. And then, all that video stuff you see.

I am going to swing passed the military craft shop today. I hope they let me sign out the compression tool kit and give me an idea for towing. I am still determined to make them make this right. Or, give me my money back. Which I doubt they will do.

John - I will ensure I get photos of the cylinders if they should take it apart again. And the rings.

My guess is, you are and Ken are spot on. Cylinder walls honed too much allowing pistons and rings to have ever so slightly room for play. Over time, play gets worse allowing more oil to slip passed. End result? See video.

But, we won't know until we get it apart.

Next step, compression check.

Honestly, if it is just needing new pistons and rings, I won't be happy, but at least I will be happier than buying a new engine. I really love the ride I got, so selling it just to rid myself from the headaches is not an option I want to take. I did that with my Porsche 944 S2 Cabriolet (1 of 200 imported to the USA) and I was kicking myself ever since)

[Mark Olson]

More Sugar: Now that it was pointed out that it looks like steam, maybe just a headgasket...

What ever it is, I still hope for the best Glenn.

Mark.

[Top Cog]

May have been some condensation and/or steam, but for sure that black stuff on Glenn's hand wasn't water...not to say we could be looking at problems with rings/pistons and headgaskets or worse. I see this as a basic and serious engine building error. Wishing best for Glenn but doesn't look good to me.

Question for the gang...if they determine oversized pistons should have been installed due to the honing, do you think there's enough metal left to re-bore and install the correct pistons & rings?...can these engines be sleeved?

Glenn, everyone's trying their best, but we're guessing from 6,000 miles...have you considered talking with another performance shop over there, such as Geiger or the Callaway people?

[MikesZ06]

Originally Posted by Top Cog

Question for the gang...if they determine oversized pistons should have been installed due to the honing, do you think there's enough metal left to re-bore and install the correct pistons & rings?...can these engines be sleeved?

If undersized pistons have been installed in the engine, you will get scoring and scratching on the cylinder walls. As to whether or not it's fixable, that depends on the amount of damage and the depth of the sleeve.
In my case, we caught the problem fairly quickly (and by accident). If I had driven another 500 to 1000 miles, the block would have been ruined. The sleeve walls on my C5R block were plenty thick enough to accept the honing needed to remove the scratches. If it was just a standard resleeved block and the discovery wasn't made fairly quickly, the sleeve walls would be thinned out too much to accept a fix.

btw, there was no noticable performance dropoff or engine noise that alerts you that there's a problem. Very high oil usage however, can be a dead giveaway.

Mike

(Now if only the company who was responsible for this mistake would have stepped up to the plate and made things right, all would have been forgiven)

btw, some keep calling the smoke from the exhaust 'steam'.... but based on the color and duration, it sure looks like oil blow-by to me.

[Top Cog]

Originally Posted by MikesZ06

btw, some keep calling the smoke from the exhaust 'steam'.... but based on the color and duration, it sure looks like oil blow-by to me.

I'm with you on this, Mike. Wish it wasn't, but wishing won't get it done.

[jub jub]

Glenn, since your block is an LQ9 block there are no sleeves and so there is some room to bore/hone. I'm not sure how much but I would imagine .030" over wouldn't be unreasonable.

You say you were burning 2 quarts every 300 miles?

[GR8 WHITE]

Jub, Top, Mike -

When I felt the loss of compression, it was on my way to a ceremony. I had no choice but to finish the drive, cautiously. I had about 10 miles or less to go. The drive back was 30 miles. So, a total of no more than 50 miles was put on the car since I felt the loss of compression and seen my blue smoke screen.

I will try and snatch up the compression tester in the morning at the shop. It was closed today. I spoke with Mike at ACP and he is standing firm on his word that there was no way the cylinders were honed over. He described the techs who use the machine for over 20 years, expertise, with zero issues previous. He described shaving or whatever, the Mahle rings to perfection and swears that it is NOT craftsmanship on their end, but possible defective rings. I spoke with him and had him tell me I would NOT be liable for any labor rates. Only parts, if needed which were NOT their fault. Such as, rings. But they said they will do the ordering of parts this time through their suppliers if it is due to defective parts. My landlords son is driving in from Munich to help me trailer the car up Wednesday to save me $400 the towing costs. The only issue I don't like is that Wednesday is a holiday and ACP won't be available to open the gates to let me drop off car and hand over keys. They simply said "Park it out back and drop the keys in our drop box". Yeah, easy for them to say, but this is like any other normal business district with little activity passed 7 pm. The last thing I want is leaving my Corvette sitting in an open lot, where no one can see. I may opt to sleep in it, on it, or next to it. But I doubt I will be comfortable leaving it exposed like that.

Ok folks - So they say they will have to remove the engine all over again. Last chance to send your input. Let them pull it, find out what's wrong and get it fixed....

Or, screw it. Keep car safe at bay, get it shipped, and take care of issues later.

My concern is if they pull the pistons and see the cylinder wall(s) have been scraped good enough I may be screwed as it is anyways. And then what? Put it back together, AS IS? I can't do that. That would be a waste of time and effort. OK, so if I have the LQ9 block, and they honed it, and it can be honed again, how do you know what size pistons and rings to get? Do they measure the diameters? And, how long can it take to find these pistons? There are so many types of pistons, arent there? Will the pistons have to be like the ones I have, to clear the valves etc due to cam? You cant just put anything in there, can you? Flat top, dome top, or what is it when they carve it out more?

[TechSTL]

Bummer man. How did ACP respond when you said you weren't paying for labor? Did you provide the rings? If so, it sounds like they want that to be the scape goat. As many times as I've checked... double checked... tested and checked again... sometimes I still make mistakes. I guess ACP is beyond that.

I'd be tempted to let the car sit... go drink a few beers and worry about it months from now. Unfortunately, that could give ACP another 'out'.

[MikesZ06]

Originally Posted by GR8 WHITE

My concern is if they pull the pistons and see the cylinder wall(s) have been scraped good enough I may be screwed as it is anyways. And then what? Put it back together, AS IS? I can't do that. That would be a waste of time and effort. OK, so if I have the LQ9 block, and they honed it, and it can be honed again, how do you know what size pistons and rings to get? Do they measure the diameters? And, how long can it take to find these pistons? There are so many types of pistons, arent there? Will the pistons have to be like the ones I have, to clear the valves etc due to cam? You cant just put anything in there, can you? Flat top, dome top, or what is it when they carve it out more?

Glenn, if you've got damage to the cylinder walls and it is fixable by re-honing (without making the cylinder walls dangerously thin), special order pistons can be obtained based upon the new specs of the cylinders. May take a little time to get since it will be a special order, but it can be done.

Of course we're having to guess at what your problem is and we certainly could be wrong, but if it is undersized pistons and you have damage, you're faced with a dilemma even worse than I faced.
Since MTI would not take any responsibility for their screw up (even though this was their second major screw up in my case), at least I had the option of taking my engine to a quality engine builder for the repairs. I wouldn't have let them touch my engine again for anything in the world. Based on your location and circumstances, you may not have the freedom to choose a good engine machine shop to do the repairs and if ACP pulls an 'MTI' on you, you're gonna have to look elsewhere. Thus the dilemma.

I hope the problem is not what we think it might be. I really do! This is fixable but expensive and should only be done by someone you trust.

IF the problem is what we've been talking about, I've got an idea you might consider. Thinking about the cost of re-honing the cylinder walls, possibly having to special order pistons and rings, etc....perhaps a better and less expensive way of fixing this might be to order a new block (the LSX block is only about $2000) and can be bored to the specs of your current pistons. That way you only pay for the new block. There might be a better way, but this is one idea to consider.

Again, I hope your problem is something much simpler than undersized pistons AND whether it is or isn't, I hope ACP steps up to the plate and takes care of anything they may have been responsible for. That would certainly make them one up on MTI!

Mike

[Top Cog]

No esy choices, Glenn. Thinking about lettimg it sit involves considering when you rotate home, missing the fun with the car over there and the expense. Only you can make the call.
ou can get it fixed faster, easier and cheaper back home, but miss a kot of fun.

I suggest letting ACP opem it up, determine the problem and then make your decision based on that info. You can always ship it home in pieces.

[No Doubt]

but possible defective rings.

So he finally admitted it could be, in essence, what some of us have been saying all along. Odd, since at first they insisted it was something amiss with the PCV system.

I spoke with him and had him tell me I would NOT be liable for any labor rates. Only parts, if needed which were NOT their fault.

How...appeasing.

I wish it were so but sadly the spoken word is often not the same as it is in writing. Note I'm not referring to a contractual agreement from a legal standpoint where ones word is sometimes sufficient.

They simply said "Park it out back and drop the keys in our drop box".

'...and we'll take a look at it when we can' Uh huh. Run, don't walk away.

Or, screw it. Keep car safe at bay, get it shipped, and take care of issues later.

I too am thinking that may be your best option given the above. As you're well aware and have stated, getting parts and major work done there is a PITA.

I'm not getting a good vibe here and you shouldn't be either.

[GR8 WHITE]

No Doubt, Tech, Mike, Top -

ACP was I am sure, frusterated, but I made him tell me clearly that I am NOT responsible for labor. And, yes, they said they WILL have to remove the block again. Regardless of what they try and tell me, it is THEM who had my entire engine apart and it was THEM who put it back together, bolt for bolt. So, there can be no excuses as to where the blame lies if it is error due to installation. I really can't see where parts woul dfail unless something wasn't torqued to specs. Here, SPECS is translated into "GUTEN TIGHT". My concern is, if there is damage to the block, and it will need honing again, new rings and new pistons. They did say if I need new parts, that THEY would order them through their sources. This concerns me because I have no idea what "parts" will cost. What I failed to do, was call the POV shipping section to see if shipping it "AS IS" will be an option. If so, that may be something to consider. Get it back home under my FREE military shipping clause and get it as close to LGs as possible. I believe there is a VPC in Dallas as well, which is close to LGs. My second dilemma is exactly what Mike said. Damage to the block = longer down time and the quest for parts. Special order etc. The good thing is my landlord's Son is coming tomorrow with his truck to trailer it up for $60.00. Thats a money saver, but I hate parking it "out back" over night. So, it comes down to one more night of decision making..... I really want them to open it up and make it right, but if it is worse and they say I need a block, then I will be very upset. And buying one or having on shipped will take a LONG Time. 4-6 weeks. Mike, going out on a limb here, but if the engine is a total wash (minus my new springs, cam, heads, lifters, etc....) what would it run to buy the LSX block and have THAT filled with quality parts? Pistons, rotating assembly, etc..... is there a shop that makes it in long block form? Just trying to get an against the odds picture...... Or, as I was referred, to look into an LS3, LS7 or the C5R block. No Doubt - I hear ya buddy. But this would be the SECOND TIME I walked off and let the Mechanic get over on me. I really don't want to accept that as an option. As for parking out back, its only because they are closed tomorrow for a German holiday and also closed on weekends. The faster I get it up there, believe me, they will get it in and wrench on it. Remember, last time when they couldn't get the cam out and I gave the green light, they had the block out and stripped in 3 hours. I was there to see them do it!

Thanks all.

[jub jub]

Originally Posted by No Doubt

I'm not getting a good vibe here and you shouldn't be either.

Neither am I. If it were me, I'd slap a new set of plugs in the car and drive it. If they foul out again, slap another set in. Install a set of plugs like the NGK Iridium IX, they have superior anti fouling properties, or so it's advertised. Do this until you PCS stateside where your options vastly improve.