GM response to failing LS7 engines - Z06Vette.com - Corvette Z06 Forum
Z06Vette.com Z06Vette.com
Go Back   Z06Vette.com - Corvette Z06 Forum > C6 Z06 Specific Topics > C6 Z06 - Grandstand
Z06vette.com is the premier Chevrolet Corvette Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-11-2012, 09:51 AM   #1 (permalink)
Z06 Addict
 
AZZ061's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Peoria,Arizona WinterFest II
Posts: 451
GM response to failing LS7 engines

Hello all,

LS7 Valve guide issue summary:
• Affects a small, number of '08, 09 ’10 and ’11 Z06’s
• GM discovered the condition through our cylinder head warranty data involving a very small percentage of our vehicles.
• Through inspection of returned heads, it was determined that a machining error in the valve guide had occurred at our head supplier.
• The quality issue has been contained as of Feb 2011 with 100% inspection of all heads.
• The most common customer complaint has been excessive valve train noise.
However if the condition is not addressed, it could result in engine failure. To date, where this condition has been observed, it has occurred early in the vehicle life.
What customers need to know: They should drive and enjoy their vehicles without fear. If their car demonstrates this condition, they are likely to hear unusual valvetrain noise first. If you have a concern regarding this issue on your personal vehicle feel free to contact me through private message on this forum and we will work to assist in resolving your concern. Feel free to contact me through Socialmedia@gm.com please put attention Evan in the subject. As always, vehicles that have modifications to the powertrain or the calibrations, are no longer covered by GM's warranty.

Sincerely,
Evan, Chevrolet Customer Service
__________________
2006 Z06 Livernois built motor
Cordes Performance Racing/Nitrous Outlet system
Katech Goodies
E85 powered 690rwhp on a 125 wet shot
AZZ061 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-13-2012, 06:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
Premium Member (Lifetime)
 
RC45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Houston, Z06 Fest Non-Attendee I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX X :(
Posts: 5,237
Lifetime Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

It is interesting that software mods void a warranty of a clear failure in manufacture.

Quote:
As always, vehicles that have modifications to the powertrain or the calibrations, are no longer covered by GM's warranty.
How can GM declare a warrant void for admitted manufacturing defect when aletered software in no way shape or form is the cause of the manufacturing defect.

Sounds like grounds for a class action suite against GM. If I was an attorney I would take it on pro bono.

Has the been Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act been repealed?
__________________

MTI/LMR Katech CamZilla LS7 Z07, Kooks, Intake, Stock Ti SAE 568rwhp & 512ft-lb N/A @ LMR, Houston
RC45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 07:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
Z06 Tech Advisor
 
racingvette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,545
Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

Different from failures due to design issues as it is federal law as to EPA as the car was certified for public sale with the PCM GM calibration car was tested to and law that no one other then GM can make calibration changes since it would effect smog output and could cause smog devices to degrade
Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act cannot super exceed EPA law

Also if GM spec'd the powertrain for a maximum of 470 ft/lb torque and 505 HP any tune changes forcing those to be higher then it is beyond the warrantied design specs.
__________________
Mike M - 2001 / 2008 Z06s

Last edited by racingvette; 10-13-2012 at 07:53 PM.
racingvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 08:36 PM   #4 (permalink)
Premium Member (Lifetime)
 
RC45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Houston, Z06 Fest Non-Attendee I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX X :(
Posts: 5,237
Lifetime Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by racingvette View Post
Different from failures due to design issues as it is federal law as to EPA as the car was certified for public sale with the PCM GM calibration car was tested to and law that no one other then GM can make calibration changes since it would effect smog output and could cause smog devices to degrade
Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act cannot super exceed EPA law.

But read the OP - it specifically states that due to design and manufacturing defect the engine can fail.

Modding the PCM may void the part of the warranty covering the PCM and mechanical failures due to over stress brought on by tuning, but it can not void the coverage of a failure due to the valve guide problem based on you modding the PCM.

Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act specifcally addresses this type scenario.

GM has an admitted failure and error in design/manufacture, so they try void warranty claim based on an unrelated component being modded.

Then again, severly stressed modded motors seldom run stock heads anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by racingvette View Post
Also if GM spec'd the powertrain for a maximum of 470 ft/lb torque and 505 HP any tune changes forcing those to be higher then it is beyond the warrantied design specs.
Except where the failure is due to the admitted valve guide manufacturing flaw.
__________________

MTI/LMR Katech CamZilla LS7 Z07, Kooks, Intake, Stock Ti SAE 568rwhp & 512ft-lb N/A @ LMR, Houston

Last edited by RC45; 10-13-2012 at 08:42 PM.
RC45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 09:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
Z06 Tech Advisor
 
racingvette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,545
Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

GM learned the hard way about the mods people did on the C5 or Fbody and then sneaky to get the dealer to repair failures from those mods under warranty since the dealer can care less as they are getting paid by GM

Now GM has written into new warranty solely about those types of mods and directly at any PCM or TCM calibrations. They are locked by EPA laws and means to modify them the locks were picked.
MMWA cannot overcome EPA federal law and the PCM is a smog device which cannot be modified even by GM without going back and getting federal testing done
GM and feds consider it tampering with PCM software so it is not like buying a 3 party part to replace a OEM part

Look how much detail GM did just about PCM tunes

#09-06-04-026B: Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations for V8 Gas Engines Using Tech 2 or Global Diagnostic System (GDS) - (Apr 7, 2010)

Subject: Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations for V8 Gas Engines Using Tech 2® or Global Diagnostic System (GDS) Models: 2006-2010 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks (Excluding Saab 9-7X) 2006-2009 HUMMER H2 2006-2010 HUMMER H3 Equipped with V8 Gas Powered Engines Only

General Motors is identifying an increasing number of engine, transmission and catalytic converter part failures that are the result of non-GM (aftermarket) engine and transmission control calibrations being used.

When alteration to the GM-released engine or transmission control calibrations occurs, it subjects powertrain and driveline components (engine, transmission, transfer case, driveshaft and rear axle) to stresses that were not tested by General Motors.

It is because of these unknown stresses, and the potential to alter reliability, durability and emissions performance, that GM has adopted a policy that prevents any UNAUTHORIZED dealer warranty claim submissions to any remaining warranty coverage, to the powertrain and driveline components whenever the presence of a non-GM (aftermarket) calibration is confirmed—even if the non-GM control module calibration is subsequently removed.

Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at time of sale, or subsequently updated by GM.

That’s because GM testing and validation matches the calibration to a host of criteria that is essential to assure reliability, durability and emissions performance over the life of the warranty coverage and beyond.

Stresses resulting from calibrations different from those tested and released by GM can damage or weaken components, leading to poor performance and or shortened life. Additionally, non-GM (aftermarket) issued engine control modifications often do not meet the same emissions performance standards as GM issued calibrations.

Depending on state statutes, individuals who install engine control module calibrations that put the vehicle outside the parameters of emissions certification standards may be subject to fines and/or penalties.

This bulletin outlines a procedure to identify the presence of non-GM (aftermarket) calibrations. GM recommends performing this check whenever a hard part failure is seen on internal engine or transmission components, or before an engine assembly or transmission assembly is being replaced under warranty.

It is also recommended that the engine calibration verification procedure be performed whenever diagnostics indicate that catalytic converter replacement is indicated.The PQC has a process to confirm the ECM/PCM calibration is GM issued.
The PQC will require a picture of the engine calibration verification screen, as outlined in this bulletin, before authorizing any V8 gas powered engine replacement.
If a non-GM calibration is found and verification has taken place through GM, the remaining powertrain and driveline warranty will be blocked and notated in GMVIS and the dealership will be notified.
This block prevents any UNAUTHORIZED warranty claim submission.
•Connect the Tech 2® to the vehicle.
•Go to: Diagnostics and build the vehicle.
•Select: Powertrain.
•Select: Engine.
•*Select: Engine Control Module or PCM.
•*Select: Module ID Information or I/M Information System if the Module ID Information selection is not available.
•*If "I/M information System" was selected, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.⇒

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC (1-800-828-6860 English or 1-800-503-3222 French) to obtain the CVN information.
•Take a CLEAR digital picture of the Tech 2® Vehicle Information screen showing the engine Calibration IDs and Verification Numbers as shown above.
Retain the printout information and the Tech 2® screen photograph with the repair order.

•E-mail a copy of the picture to tacsnapshot@gm.com.
In the subject line of the e-mail include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC. In the body of the e-mail, include the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC.
Include a brief description of the customer concern and cause of the concern.
Note: The dealer will receive an e-mail reply after the calibrations have been validated. The e-mail reply will advise the dealer if the calibrations are OEM.

•Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.⇒ If the PQC determines that the calibrations ARE aftermarket calibrations, DO NOT contact GM Technical Assistance to discuss warranty concerns on the aftermarket calibrations. ALL questions and concerns about warranty should be directed to the dealers Fixed Operations Manager (FOM), (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada).

•You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request.

Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.Tech 2® Displaying All Zeroes for the Verification Numbers on the Calibration ID and Verification Number Screen If the Tech 2® that you are using displays all zeroes for the Verification Numbers as shown, then perform the following steps:
•Update the Tech 2® with the latest software from TIS2WEB.
•Turn OFF the ignition for 90 seconds.

•Connect the Tech 2® to the vehicle.
•Turn ON the ignition, and build the vehicle.
Observe the Tech 2® Calibration ID and Verification Number screen for proper operation.⇒
If the Tech 2® screen still does not display properly, then turn OFF the ignition for 90 seconds again.

Turn ON the ignition and observe the same screen for proper operation. Retrieving Calibrations From a Global A Vehicle
This information applies to the 2010 Camaro and is typical of the procedure that will be used on Global A vehicles.
•Turn OFF the ignition.

•Connect the MDI to the Data Link Connector (DLC) of the vehicle. Note: Use the USB port to make the following MDI connection:
•Connect the MDI to a PC or laptop that has been downloaded with the GDS application from TIS2WEB.

Note: At least one Diagnostic Package must be installed on the PC to perform diagnostics. If GDS was just installed, select: Add New Diagnostic Package and then select: a Diagnostic Package to download.
•Click: On the GDS icon on the PC.
•The Login Page will appear.
•Select: A User.
•The ID Screen will appear.
•Select: The serial number of the MDI being used.
•Select: Connect.
•Verify that the system status is ready by observing for a flashing PC light icon on the MDI.
•Select: Make, Model and Model Year, in order to build the vehicle.
•Click: Upload VIN, to allow the VIN to be reported to the PC. •At: The Verification step, turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF.
•Select: Next Action.
•The Home Page will appear.
•Select: Next.
•The Diagnostic Screen will appear.
Note: Due to vehicle build, software and RPO variations, GDS may ask for additional information in Step 18.
•Select: Engine ID, if prompted.
•Select: Module Diagnostics.
•Select: ECM.
•Select: ID Information.
•The Diagnostics page will appear. Typical View of GDS Calibration History Screen Note: GDS is capable of displaying up to 10 Calibration History events.
•Select: Calibration History from the drop down menu in order to display the following items on the screen:
• Calibration History Buffer
• Number of Calibration History Events Stored
• Calibration Part Number History
• Calibration Verification Number History
•Select: Screenshot.
•Name and save the file in an appropriate folder.

•Select : Print, and retain a copy of the screenshot with the repair order.
•E-mail a copy of the screenshot to tacsnapshot@gm.com. In the subject line of the e-mail include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC.

In the body of the e-mail, include the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC. Include a brief description of the customer concern and cause of the concern.

Note: The dealer will receive an e-mail reply after the calibrations have been validated. The e-mail reply will advise the dealer if the calibrations are OEM.

•Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.⇒ If the PQC determines that the calibrations ARE aftermarket calibrations,
DO NOT contact GM Technical Assistance to discuss warranty concerns on the aftermarket calibrations.
ALL questions and concerns about warranty should be directed to the dealers Fixed Operations Manager (FOM), (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada).

•You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request. Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.Warranty Information

• The Dealership Service Management must be involved in any situation that would justify the use of labor operation Z1111. • Notify the Fixed Operations Manager (FOM) (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada) of the situation.
• All claims will have to be routed to the FOM (WM in Canada) for approval.
• Please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 09-00-89-016, Labor Operation Z1111 - Suspected Tampering or Vehicle Modifications for important information.

For vehicles repaired under warranty, use:Labor Operation Description Labor Time Z1111 Suspected Tampering or Vehicle Modifications 0.2 hr GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer".
__________________
Mike M - 2001 / 2008 Z06s
racingvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 03:48 PM   #6 (permalink)
Z06 Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: san antonio, tx
Posts: 152
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

Another reason to avoid LS7's
__________________
04z,MY, Hurricane CAI, Dynamaxx Headers, B&M, Stoptech pads and rotors, 160 Tstst, pfadt 'fatty bars and coilovers, Redline and Motul fluids, Cam
HarryZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 08:53 PM   #7 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,574
Lifetime Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

There is no super car that has a 5 yr 100K warranty. I have an extended I think for 2 more years. That's why I keep it stock. I would like to do some things but I won't. They have to keep their warranty work to a minimum for mod guys. They are taking from our pool too just like insurance fraud. I actually don't blame them(GM) as most all of these LS7 explosions are modded. Few are stock and I believe it is a valve guide issue. But that being said they could sell this car w/ a 3 yr 36K and guys would buy it. I'd rather they crack down on guys who CHOSE to throw their warranty out the window. I had a BMW that I liked a 06 750. 4 year warranty and an extended that didn't cover alot was over 4000 dollars. for only two more years. Our warranty and the price of an extended is very reasonable. Players should pay their own bill.
seamus2154 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2012, 06:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 4
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

Got extended warranty from dennis @
Fichtner Chevrolet

***edited***

great to deal with
has a great rep on hummer fourms

Last edited by MikesZ06; 10-18-2012 at 08:01 PM. Reason: Contact info for non supporting vendor
gunut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2012, 03:57 AM   #9 (permalink)
Moderator
 
MSiska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 20,513
Lifetime Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by seamus2154 View Post
T I actually don't blame them(GM) as most all of these LS7 explosions are modded. Few are stock and I believe it is a valve guide issue. Our warranty and the price of an extended is very reasonable. Players should pay their own bill.
I know a guy who had an 06Z06 (not me), and he wanted to put a cam in it after the warranty had run out. When the heads were taken off (it was stock), The valves were so loose in the guides and the ports had taken such a beating that the shop couldn't save the heads. He had to get new heads and he sold it after that.

And Jim, I agree with your last statement. If you wanna play, you gotta pay!
__________________
Z06Fest Addict: I II III IV V VI VIII IX X XI
MSiska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2012, 07:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
Z06 Pilot
 
zeta08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: DFL swampland
Posts: 943
Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

How are you supposed to tell if there is excessive valvetrain noise when all these LS engines tick from new?
zeta08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 08:11 AM   #11 (permalink)
Moderator
 
MSiska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 20,513
Lifetime Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeta08 View Post
How are you supposed to tell if there is excessive valvetrain noise when all these LS engines tick from new?
Good question. And all of them do tick.
__________________
Z06Fest Addict: I II III IV V VI VIII IX X XI
MSiska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 03:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
Z06 Tech Advisor
 
racingvette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,545
Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

Sound travels, even more on aluminum engines

Check or have dealer look at this TSB

08-06-01-019: Rattle/Tapping Type Noise Heard Under Hood (Diagnose and Replace Engine Oil Tank Transfer Tube Seal (O-Ring)) - (Aug 13, 2008)


Subject: Rattle/Tapping Type Noise Heard Under Hood (Diagnose and Replace Engine Oil Tank Transfer Tube Seal (O-Ring))


Models: 2006-2009 Chevrolet Corvette Z06

2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 with 6.2L or 7.0L Engine (VINs R, E -- RPOs LS9, LS7)

Condition

Some customers may comment on a rattle or tapping type noise that is heard under the hood at just above idle, usually 1200 to 2200 RPM.

In some cases, this noise may also be heard on the inside of the vehicle and be more pronounced on the passenger side.

Cause

This noise may be caused by the internal transfer tube in the engine oil tank hitting the inside of the tank cover.
The seal (o-ring) that secures the tube in place may split and slide down the tube allowing the tube to be loose.

Correction

Diagnose the noise by raising the vehicle on a hoist and holding the throttle at about 1500 RPM to duplicate the condition.

Use a stethoscope or chassis ears and place them on the side of the engine oil tank. If the noise is detected, perform the procedure outlined below.
If the noise is not detected, continue following published diagnostics in SI.

Remove the engine oil tank from the vehicle. Refer to the Oil Tank Replacement procedure in SI.

Remove the eight bolts that secure the tank top.

Separate the tank. Check the seal (o-ring) for proper position and damage. Replace the seal (o-ring) if damaged with P/N 24576940.

Reinstall the tank top and secure with the eight bolts.
Install the engine oil tank into the vehicle.
Refer to the Oil Tank Replacement procedure in SI.

Parts Information
Part Number ---------------- Description ---------------- Qty

24576940 Seal (O-Ring), Engine Oil (Tank Transfer Tube) 1
__________________
Mike M - 2001 / 2008 Z06s
racingvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 07:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
Z06 Pilot
 
zeta08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: DFL swampland
Posts: 943
Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

^^ Thanks. I actually had my 08 Z oil tank replaced for this noise at 1700 miles... It hasn't returned. The noise of which I speak is the engine noise from new in all these engines. Not too loud, and "normal". I'm confident my egine is running well now, but what does one needing a GM TSB repair sound like?
zeta08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 08:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
Premium Member (Lifetime)
 
ProfessorBlaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 809
Send a message via AIM to ProfessorBlaze Send a message via MSN to ProfessorBlaze Send a message via Yahoo to ProfessorBlaze
Lifetime Premium Member
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

amazing. after 5 years they're still not making flaw-less ls7's.
__________________
2001 TR C5Z with some stock mods and 78k Miles! Check it ouuuuut!
http://www.cardomain.com/Ride/382066...rolet-corvette
It takes 8,460 bolts to assemble a car and 1 nut to scatter it all over the road.
ProfessorBlaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2012, 09:46 PM   #15 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Houston
Posts: 3
Re: GM response to failing LS7 engines

***edited***

You obviously didn't pay any attention to the warning you were given

Last edited by MikesZ06; 10-21-2012 at 07:06 AM.
jrgeorge27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Z06Vette.com - Corvette Z06 Forum > C6 Z06 Specific Topics > C6 Z06 - Grandstand


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rocker Arms Failing? rosulekg C6 Z06 - Pit Road 4 07-19-2007 03:15 PM
Z06 failing under 'load' blkZ06 C5 Z06 - Tuning & Electronics 28 08-13-2006 01:33 AM
Search keeps failing mwkyzer Z06vette.com Site Issues or Suggestions 6 06-25-2006 09:05 AM
NO HELP - Red Cross Failing Us! Kaya The Garage (non Vette related) 39 09-04-2005 06:20 PM
Z06 Accessory Drive noise-what's failing? DennyM C5 Z06 - Pit Road 7 07-04-2004 05:48 PM

» Log in
User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» Insurance
» Latest Auto News
Indianapolis Motor Speedway Unveils New LED Scoring Pylon
The Indianapolis Motor Speedway has begun upgrading its facilities.
Most Watched Videos of the Week: July 20 July 27, 2014
If you’ve been missing out on AutoGuide.com‘s videos this
Top Viral News Stories of the Week: July 20 – July 27, 2014
Through social media, some stories have a life of their
» New Car Reviews
2015 Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat Review
Hell Hath No Fury like a Muscle Car Scorned
2014 Dodge Challenger R/T Shaker Review
Shake, Rattle and Body Roll
2014 Audi RS 7 Review
Audi you like it? Very much, actually.
2014 Nissan Juke NISMO RS Review
Because the Regular Juke is Too Ordinary
2014 Honda Civic Si Coupe Review
More style. Better handling.
» Featured Product
» Wheel & Tire Center

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2