The stock pads are terrible. The brake pad material is a Ferodo DS2500 that is the dirtiest pad I have ever owned including race pads. In addition, the pad taper is extreme not only from top to bottom, but leading edge to trailing. And to top that, the outside pads wear at a different rate than the inside pads, (which is not that uncommon) but the pad to pad wear is different as well. Here are some pics I just took, which show the top, outside pad on the left hand side that has "correct" rotors. The top to bottom taper is almost 2mm, and the leading to trailing edge taper is about .5mm. Note the rediculous "U" shaped insulator on the back that does not even cover the entire piston surface! Am am sorry, I think the car is the best I have ever driven, but these brakes, at least with these pads, and backwards rotors on the RH side are total junk! BTW, this is after 2100 miles, including one mild track day at LRP.
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2006 Z06 Corvette for more fun...
Yes, 500 street miles, then one track day at LRP. Since then it has been all easy street in a cold environment. These have 2100 total miles. The taper is consistant for the fronts, less in the rear. The new Carbotech pads do not have the insulator so I am eager to try them and perhaps the calipers are fine and only the stock pads with weird insulator are the issue.
Wow.... great info... I agree with you, these brake pads (or padlets) are total junk and the "two right rotor" thing is simply inexcusable.
I can't wait for Ceramic padlets to become available.
Having owned the car for 30 days and having only put on about 950 miles (It's been raining here a LOT!), I have already "cleaned" the brake dust off the wheels about a dozen times. It's pathetic how much dust these brakes (padlets) put out.
What's the forum's opinions about carbon metallic pads vs ceramic? On my former 96 Impala SS, I always used Performance Friction Carbon Metallic pads and they were great. Excellent stopping power (even with the standard street pads vs the Z-rated racing pads) and they put out minimal dust (hardly any!).
I really with GM would have paid more attention to detial on the C6Z brake pads and rotors.
Some quotes from the Corvette Quarterly article that reports on the 24 hr C6Z Virginia International Raceway endurance session.
“The test was developed to represent an entire season of
racing and answer the question of how well the car would do
for a season. We are making sure that people who do race these
cars will have a reliable car for the entire year.” LUKE SEWELL
On the results ...
"Z06 owners who choose to race their cars can do so secure in the knowledge that every component is tough enough to survive a full season without premature failure. They need only take care of expendables like tires and brake pads, and the rest of the car will practically take care of itself."
This does seem like an impressive test for a street car.
"After an hour of this Johnny (O’Connell) gets a rest but the car doesn’t. Engineers quickly download a mass of data from special onboard computers, technicians refill the fuel tank and change tires, and on every second such “pit stop” they change brake pads as well."
So the tires lasted for one hour and the pads lasted for two. The implication is that they used street tires and street pads but they don't say this specifically.
The caption on the shot of a scored brake rotor (the picture is small but you can see some cracks) ...
"A cross-drilled brake rotor wears battle scars from the 24-hour
durability test"
So it seems that the rotors made it through the full test.
On brake testing ...
"Probes measure the temperature at each of the front calipers’ six pads and the rear calipers’ four pads. Lines plumbed into the calipers allow sensors to measure hydraulic pressure at each wheel. Transducers convert the mechanical signals from the temperature and pressure sensors to electronic signals that get transmitted to the STI. Along with the temperature and pressure data, an onboard computer also collects information about the brake booster function and the driver’s pedal input. In between runs, this information is among the wealth of data downloaded to a laptop. For every hour’s worth of run time, brake development engineer Rifici spends at least two hours analyzing the data, which precisely indicates how the entire braking system is performing. Mix in some good old-fashioned visual inspection of relevant parts, process it all through Rifici’s many years of experience, make changes when and where called for, and you end up with a braking system that should be nothing short of bulletproof."
Seems like a pretty thorough evaluation of brake performance.
Clearly a few HPDE track days a year are well within the design envelope of the C6Z brakes and rotors. In terms of stopping power, fade, etc., I haven't heard anyone say they were dissappointed with these brakes (and so far no one has reported on anything other than street pads).
The brake problem seems to be exceptionally fast pad wear and severe taper when street pads are used on the track. In addition, replacement pads are very pricey.
Isn't it a bit strange for C6Z pads to cost $300 for a front set when Brembo F50 Ferrodo 2500 pads cost $177.
Replacement pad price is an issue that GM needs to respond to. There doesn't appear to be anything 'exceptional' about the performance of these calipers that justifies sticking Corvette owners with this kind of over priced maintenance expense. If GM can't provide street pads for a reasonable price they should not have used these calipers.
It's useful to know that the pads are Ferodo DS2500 ...
"Ferodo DS2500 Club Race pads can be used on the street and for light to medium track duty. Good cold bite, but can be noisy. Proper bedding can help reduce this noise. Less compressible than other pads, giving it excellent pedal feel and good modulation. The average friction level of about 0.50 remains constant at any speed and at temperatures up to 1,000 °F, after which it falls off slowly. Frequently used in the rear of front engine cars in conjunction with Ferodo DS3000 in front."
It seems that GM has gone an extra step in providing high quality street pads even if they do spew dust. I'm guessing the odd backing plate is some type of noise suppression mechanism since GM probably doesn't want a repeat of the 2005 Z51 noise issue.
Since Ferodo DS2500 compund is not made for track use on the front of high performance cars it's not surprising that they have track induced wear problems on the C6Z.
The $64K question is will track pads have the same wear problems? If they do, this should be considered a GM design problem since they clearly designed these calipers for moderate track use. GM should be on the hook to fix this. Hiding behind 'isn't a problem for street use' is not good enough for the C6Z.
The same goes for the rotors - either they last a 'season' of HPDE's and work well for moderate track use or GM should replace them with rotors that do. Owners have a right to expect them to perform and last as well as OE rotors on other tracked high performance cars. The C6Z got first class OE tires and it should have gotten first class OE rotors.
Now that the C6Z is out and owners are taking GM up on their claim that it is well equiped for moderate track use it is time for GM to give owners some straight forward information about track brake issues.
Possibly if we sent a letter with our questions and issues to the NCM they could get the Corvette team to respond.
Clearly a few HPDE track days a year are well within the design envelope of the C6Z brakes and rotors.
I would agree that should not be out of the question. However, it also depends on the driver and how hard they are on brakes, as well as a given track and how hard it is known to be on brakes as well.
Quote:
The brake problem seems to be exceptionally fast pad wear and severe taper when street pads are used on the track.
This is a well-understood phenomenon of using what are in essence high performance street pads on a track, no surprise at all.
Quote:
Isn't it a bit strange for C6Z pads to cost $300 for a front set when Brembo F50 Ferrodo 2500 pads cost $177.
Not really, considering the only car to my knowledge that uses these pads is the C6 Z06. In addition, Brembo uses one-piece pad vs. the multiple "padlets" the Z06 requires. Cost of goods sold may be greater because of this as well as the fact they are a limited production item not common to many (any?) other car.
Quote:
Replacement pad price is an issue that GM needs to respond to. There doesn't appear to be anything 'exceptional' about the performance of these calipers that justifies sticking Corvette owners with this kind of over priced maintenance expense. If GM can't provide street pads for a reasonable price they should not have used these calipers.
I agree. It's one reason I have Brembo brakes.
Quote:
Since Ferodo DS2500 compund is not made for track use on the front of high performance cars it's not surprising that they have track induced wear problems on the C6Z.
No surprise at all. Track the car use race pads, drive on the street use street pads. No one compound can do it all equally well and there never has been.
Quote:
The same goes for the rotors - either they last a 'season' of HPDE's and work well for moderate track use or GM should replace them with rotors that do.
Quote:
The $64K question is will track pads have the same wear problems?
"Track pads" are race pads, period. They will wear horribly on the street (as will the rotors they are used with) and will not work well (or in some cases not at all) until within their (usually hot) temperature range. Remember: Track the car use race pads. Drive on the street use street pads.
Quote:
Hiding behind 'isn't a problem for street use' is not good enough for the C6Z.
Sure it is. It's a streetcar. Once again in case you forgot : Track the car use race pads. Drive on the street use street pads.
Good luck finding ANY rotor that can do that.
Define "moderate track use". An HPDE event is moderate use of the stock brakes. Street driving is light use, or should be. Remember, we're referring to stock brake pads here, not race pads. We're also referring to a production streetcar, not a purpose built racecar. Moderate use on a racecar is a different matter entirely.
In summary, this quote said it best "They need only take care of expendables like tires and brake pads". They should have added rotors in there as well. Not to mention fluids, etc. The point is brake pads are a consumable wear item and when subjected to track use wear much faster, as do rotors and tires.
Sorry for the double post, but not being able to edit or delete ones own posts due to errors is quite annoying.
(Just as an idea for posting and edit function), try using Outlook to compose your post and spell check function as well. Use copy and paste to input onto this page. Not having the spell check and edit here is a PITA.
[quote=ghoffman]The stock pads are terrible. The brake pad material is a Ferodo DS2500 that is the dirtiest pad I have ever owned including race pads. In addition, the pad taper is extreme not only from top to bottom, but leading edge to trailing. And to top that, the outside pads wear at a different rate than the inside pads, (which is not that uncommon) but the pad to pad wear is different as well. Here are some pics I just took, which show the top, outside pad on the left hand side that has "correct" rotors. The top to bottom taper is almost 2mm, and the leading to trailing edge taper is about .5mm. Note the rediculous "U" shaped insulator on the back that does not even cover the entire piston surface! Am am sorry, I think the car is the best I have ever driven, but these brakes, at least with these pads, and backwards rotors on the RH side are total junk! BTW, this is after 2100 miles, including one mild track day at LRP.
so what is the problem? the pads in your pics look just as i would expect..they are not worn out from what i can see.the rotor vane issue is a no issue ...why does everyone rag on the brakes? they work just as they are supposed to...great!....i just dont get it.....
Last edited by vettemaster1 : 01-01-2006 at 09:14 AM.
I didn't mean to imply that race pads should be used on the street.
If owners use common sense and switch to at least front race pads for track use then they should expect wear, lack of taper and cost that is at least equivalent to that provided by the OE calipers on Viper's, etc. If they don't, owners should expect GM to fix this. The same for rotor performance and wear.
Since it's well known that drilled rotors have cracking issues and that marketing 'forces' their use, it's reasonable to give GM a pass on this as long as these rotors at least provide equivalent track performance to OE rotors on equivalent high performance cars. There seems to be early evidence that the rotors don't meet this bar and that they are prematurely cracking. Whether this is due to the left-around issue or some other reason is a good question.
We should expect that the calipers and rotors provide reasonable track performance as GM clearly claims they do - the C6Z deserves this. Good street performance is also required but it is not the bar that GM has set for the C6Z.
The stock pads are terrible. The brake pad material is a Ferodo DS2500 that is the dirtiest pad I have ever owned including race pads. In addition, the pad taper is extreme not only from top to bottom, but leading edge to trailing. And to top that, the outside pads wear at a different rate than the inside pads, (which is not that uncommon) but the pad to pad wear is different as well. Here are some pics I just took, which show the top, outside pad on the left hand side that has "correct" rotors. The top to bottom taper is almost 2mm, and the leading to trailing edge taper is about .5mm. Note the rediculous "U" shaped insulator on the back that does not even cover the entire piston surface! Am am sorry, I think the car is the best I have ever driven, but these brakes, at least with these pads, and backwards rotors on the RH side are total junk! BTW, this is after 2100 miles, including one mild track day at LRP.
so what is the problem? the pads in your pics look just as i would expect..they are not worn out from what i can see.the rotor vane issue is a no issue ...why does everyone rag on the brakes? they work just as they are supposed to...great!....i just dont get it.....
Tapered pads equal mushy pedal. Rotor vanes are a issue for a 200 MPH premier sports car. The car is supposed to be there flagship car. I wouldn't want to see vanes the wrong way in $20,000 car. They should have made them non-directional if it was not an issue. One track day is about 200 miles or less. If I paid 75 for a car it would be a problem for me.
Viper went with Brembos as the Z was supposed to have in early rumors.
If I paid 75 for a car it would be a problem for me.
QUOTE]
You know John, that is why I have posted this subject a couple of times on both forums. It just royally ticks me off, especially the rotors. We "don't need no stinking (cosmetic)holes" at the cost of the directional issue. I will come up with a new rotor, and try some Carbotech pads in the stock calipers. Perhaps Larry's pads will make the stock calipers useful after all, but the stock Ferodo pads and stock rotors are totally unacceptable for any use.
so what is the problem? the pads in your pics look just as i would expect..they are not worn out from what i can see.the rotor vane issue is a no issue ...why does everyone rag on the brakes? they work just as they are supposed to...great!....i just dont get it.....
The issue is that he has so much taper on the pads that he has a very spongy pedal feel.
Even though there is a lot of material left on the pads, they are junk unless he access to a milling machine or something to plane them off.
I wouldn't be happy if my C5 brakes wore pads like that, and these C6Z pads are nearly twice as expensive.
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: Track the car use race pads. Drive on the street use street pads.
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