pfadt products install, so far not so good

[Eric_Rav]

Well yesterday and today I had a few pfadt products put into the Z. They were

-poly bushings. Hoped for a little better steering feel
-camber kit. Recently experienced how much a good alignment with slight negative camber can affect handling (for the better), and thought that something that would keep it that way might be a good idea
-shocks. Alot of talk about the shocks on this car not being ideal, and a good article by pfadt about it here recently, and they changed 'em in '07, so it seemed like it was worth trying.
-sway bars.
-chassis bar/roll cage. A little roll protection isn't a bad idea as I'm a novice track driver with a ridiculously fast car, which might equal the potential for something bad happening.

The parts are all in, I got the car aligned at the dealership. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out very well. At least so far. Some comments:

-I think the shocks may well be exactly what I'd like. They're set to 6, and the ride may be firmer than stock, but body motion from a bump is more brief, and the car feels better. There's some room to go softer on the shocks, and its very well damped right now, so I do think that a better ride will be had. And i'll drive the car a bit mroe this evening to get a better feel for how I like it & report.

-This is preliminary again, but the steering does feel great. I'll post again in a while after a drive.

-The chassis bar looks awesome. However, it may be the antichrist. More on that below.


And then the bad news. The car clanks, it rattles, it clanks again. Every. Single. Bump. It. Clanks. Its completely maddening. It may be in part, or in total, the muffler banging on the sway bar, which is only a tiny fraction of an inch away from the muffler when the car is resting. My steering column also has a rattle. I suppose thats just a function of letting somebody dig around and fk with you vehicle, but its incredibly annoying.

And its so loud that you can't realistically listen to the radio at highway speeds. Its louder than a ragtop Porsche on the highway, and that is pretty darn loud. Its louder than a Viper. Its H1 loud if any of you guys are hummer fans. Is the noise coming from the bushings (I don't think so, as its all from the hatch area, and if the bushings made that big of a diff you'd hear it up front as well). Is the noise from the chassis bar? What? I got nothing. But the car is far from enjoyable at this time.

I talked to Pfadt a few times about noise and how I didn't want a rattle trap or something unbearably loud. They are extremely nice folks tot alk to, and very helpful, and assured me that extreme noise levels wouldn't result. I am not blaming them or intending to throw a barb their way, but extreme noise levels have more than resulted. What happened? Its not like I expected a Lexus, I realized some noise increase would happen. But damn.

I measured the car with a 1/3 octave band sound meter (20-10khz) before the changes, I'll perhaps measure it on the same stretch of road at the same speed and report. The wind is similar tonight. I'd wager its 10dB or more louder, which is rather similar to the amount of noise increase you'd experience from opening a bedroom door while music was playing inside.


I feel pretty d@mn bad right now. I did as much homework as I could both on what to order and what to expect from it and who to have put it in and how straightforward the install would be. And I got exactly what I didn't want.

[Eric_Rav]

a couple of cell phone pics of the roll bar.

[Eric_Rav]

Well, anyway, I drove around for the better part of an hour.

The chassis bar may be transmitting alot of impact tyhpe noises (pebbles hitting the undercarriage, etc.). It may be transmitting the clanks into the cabin. Every single bump yields a clank that sounds like you have a tray full of tools in the hatch and they are bouncing around and hitting each other. Pebbles hitting have a distinct high pitched ring.

Its tough to tell if the chassis bar makes the car feel more rigid when every bump makes the car clang and rattle.

I like the ride and I think those shocks will probably work out just right. Though 6 still feels stiffer than stock.

If the sway bars and bushings make handling/steering better, the difference in the overall behavior of the car isn't anything like the difference from changing tires. I'll have to drive the car a bit more to get a feel for it. I'm not convinced that the thing is adjusted properly. I got nothing.

From time to time some significant vibration shows up in the steering column, one time rolling from a stop another vibration showed up that I've never seen before, a high pitched metal-rubbing noise is occasionally present, and the car just doesn't feel right. I took every cloverleaf and curve and turn that I normally drive for fun, and don't get me wrong, some things seemed good. But more things are bad.

This really sucks. I had a whole weekend bought and paid for at the track, but there's no way I'm taking this mess and trying to drive it fast. Maybe if I beg and plead the dealer will get it back to normal tomorrow so I can salvage Sunday.

Whats a boy to do?

[seamus2154]

Sorry it's not working out so far. I have a thought or possible solution to the roll bar. If it is transmitting sound from it's mounting points I would figure it's echoing the hollow tube. My fix it mind would say to drill 3-6 strategically placed small holes. Get the overexpanding spray foam insulation (they have it at Home Depot) and spray in the holes. Put tape over holes w/ tie wraps. After in dries weld holes. That would deaden any reverberation through the tubing. Just a thought I hate modifiying a part I just paid a premium for but it could work. Good luck dialing it in. Jim

[Eric_Rav]

Originally Posted by seamus2154

Sorry it's not working out so far. I have a thought or possible solution to the roll bar. If it is transmitting sound from it's mounting points I would figure it's echoing the hollow tube. My fix it mind would say to drill 3-6 strategically placed small holes. Get the overexpanding spray foam insulation (they have it at Home Depot) and spray in the holes. Put tape over holes w/ tie wraps. After in dries weld holes. That would deaden any reverberation through the tubing. Just a thought I hate modifiying a part I just paid a premium for but it could work. Good luck dialing it in. Jim

Thanks Jim. I need a beer.

You may well have a good idea there. Filling/damping the metal frame in some way might help. Maybe take it back out and put some kind of gasket between it and the mounting points as well?

Honestly, right now I'm considering taking it to the dealer tomorrow, paying out of my arse to have it all taken back out, and trying to make the track on Sunday.

[defender]

PM me if you want to sell the bar.

[Eric_Rav]

Originally Posted by defender

PM me if you want to sell the bar.

will do.

I spent the entire day rattle chasing with a friend and the noise levels have been reduced to just distinctly-louder-than-stock, which is about what I expected. Plugged some stuff, tinkered with some stuff, its liveable and you can listen to the radio and all. So thats good.

It still clangs over every bump, and I think it relates to the muffler. Its either hitting the pfadt sway bar and making quite a clank or muffler noise is transmitting into the cabin through the chassis bar/roll cage.

That bar appears to now be the primary culprit for increased noise, and may well be the entire problem. The weekend is shot, but at least it looks like the car will be recoverable.

As for the performance of the parts, I'll have to drive it one day when I'm not frustrated. Mood w/o a doubt affects subjective impressions. In more driving today the car felt better than last night (got another alignment).

[DJWorm]

1. This is a prime example of the 1st Rule of Modification, especially when it comes to suspension.

Rule #1: Do only 1 modification at a time, then test, evaluate, adjust and tune.

If you do 4 mods, Ie. bushings, sway bars, shocks, and roll bar all at once; and then have an adverse reaction, you don't know what's causing it or how to correct it.

2. You installed a 4 Point Roll Bar....not a "chassis bar"...or a harness bar.

Your next step(s) should be to re chack that:
- everything was installed correctly
- all the bolts were torqued to the correct specifications
- none of the fasteners have come loose
- there is adequate clearance...this includes static AND dynamic under maximum bump and rebound.
- All the bushings were appropriate lubricated. Follow the manufacturers recommendation. I prefer a white Lithium grease for the sway bar mount bushings (rubber or Delrin) and a red silicon spray grease for heim jointed sway bar end links and spherical bushings (teflon lined or not). The Lithium can also be used on A-Arm bushings (OEM rubber, poly ureathane or Delrin).
Impregnated poly-graphite bushings do not need lubrication (they are the only ones that do not need lubrication.

DO NOT drill additional holes in the Roll Bar or fill it with any kind of insulation.
There should be only 1 inspection hole in the Roll bar tubing. Filling with insulation can trap moisture...cause corrosion and lead to failure....just when your cranium will need it most.

If the Roll Bar is bolted in DO NOT install an insulating pad between it and the frame mount. It must be metal to metal contact with the proscribed size and thickness and hardware.

Do NOT powder coat the Roll Bar. It can be painted with a thin coat or oiled.

I suggest installing appropriate Roll bar padding. This may reduce the transmitted sound if any.

Some areas overlooked that can cause a suspension "clank":
- on lowered cars the rear spring perch end bracket can contact the inner wheel rim shoulder on full compression.
- using too long shocks on a lowered car.
- loose or incorrect torqued axel nut
- over torqued sway bay mount bolts. NOTE: sway bar should rotate in the sway bar mounts freely by hand with the end links disconnected and the mount bolts correctly Torqued.

[Eric_Rav]

Originally Posted by DJWorm

1. This is a prime example of the 1st Rule of Modification, especially when it comes to suspension.

Rule #1: Do only 1 modification at a time, then test, evaluate, adjust and tune.

If you do 4 mods, Ie. bushings, sway bars, shocks, and roll bar all at once; and then have an adverse reaction, you don't know what's causing it or how to correct it.

Thank you very much for the feedback.

I hear you. I broke the rule and now I've got my junk in a wringer. The original plan was the roll cage and shocks, but it all wound up going in. The shop meant well in putting it all in and I'm not upset about that at all, but it'll cost a couple pennies more to examine it one part at a time now. I'll take the blame for not expressing my wishes strongly enough.

2. You installed a 4 Point Roll Bar....not a "chassis bar"...or a harness bar.

Your next step(s) should be to re chack that:
- everything was installed correctly
- all the bolts were torqued to the correct specifications
- none of the fasteners have come loose
- there is adequate clearance...this includes static AND dynamic under maximum bump and rebound.
- All the bushings were appropriate lubricated. Follow the manufacturers recommendation. I prefer a white Lithium grease for the sway bar mount bushings (rubber or Delrin) and a red silicon spray grease for heim jointed sway bar end links and spherical bushings (teflon lined or not). The Lithium can also be used on A-Arm bushings (OEM rubber, poly ureathane or Delrin).
Impregnated poly-graphite bushings do not need lubrication (they are the only ones that do not need lubrication.

DO NOT drill additional holes in the Roll Bar or fill it with any kind of insulation.
There should be only 1 inspection hole in the Roll bar tubing. Filling with insulation can trap moisture...cause corrosion and lead to failure....just when your cranium will need it most.

If the Roll Bar is bolted in DO NOT install an insulating pad between it and the frame mount. It must be metal to metal contact with the proscribed size and thickness and hardware.

Do NOT powder coat the Roll Bar. It can be painted with a thin coat or oiled.

I suggest installing appropriate Roll bar padding. This may reduce the transmitted sound if any.

Some areas overlooked that can cause a suspension "clank":
- on lowered cars the rear spring perch end bracket can contact the inner wheel rim shoulder on full compression.
- using too long shocks on a lowered car.
- loose or incorrect torqued axel nut
- over torqued sway bay mount bolts. NOTE: sway bar should rotate in the sway bar mounts freely by hand with the end links disconnected and the mount bolts correctly Torqued.

The cage was described by its manufacturer as a "chassis bar", not a roll bar, which is why I called it both above. In any case, it is powdercoated already.

Thank you again for the input, there is alot of information there, and I think it'll be a good help.

[Josh]

I am sorry that you are experiencing these problems with your install. I would like to first say that we will do what ever is necessary to resolve all of your concerns!

There is the possibility that the chassis bar will transmit chassis noise because it is connected directly to the chassis. We have found that if the holes that are cut through the fiberglass, to gain access to the frame, are not sealed very well that they will allow a lot of road noise into the cockpit. We recommend using some dynamat or other like material to cover the holes and seal out the road noise.

The clunk from the rear is possibly the sway bar touching the mufflers. I am guessing that you have the dual mode mufflers, they are heavy and tend to hang low. If the arms are not correctly positioned on the bar the dip will not clear the mufflers when driving.

Please give me a call, 888-972-2464, so that we can get to the bottom of all of your noise issues so you can return to enjoying your new suspension.

[Eric_Rav]

Thanks josh, I'm sure it can all get figured out, but the sway bars might have to go if they are the source of the infernal clanking. I'll give you guys a call when I find the time

[No Doubt]

The cage was described by its manufacturer as a "chassis bar", not a roll bar, which is why I called it both above.

Nearly all manufacturers refer to them as something other than roll bars for liability reasons. If they call them roll bars, they are making a (legal) claim of suitability for that purpose.

[Eric_Rav]

Originally Posted by No Doubt

Nearly all manufacturers refer to them as something other than roll bars for liability reasons. If they call them roll bars, they are making a (legal) claim of suitability for that purpose.

makes sense, I'm sure I'd do the same. it is a litigous society.

[Eric_Rav]

Well I just got it back to the place that installed the parts for some rattle-chasing. In the last day or 2 the clanking and squeaking got substantially worse, like something was loosening up as the car drove.

Hopefully its just the cage and solve-able, and not something that'll take the rest of the summer to track down... just in time to store the car over winter. Here's hoping!

[No Doubt]

"An implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose is a warranty implied by law that if a seller knows or has reason to know of a particular purpose for which some item is being purchased by the buyer, the seller is guaranteeing that the item is fit for that particular purpose."

In other words, if I were to sell you a "chassis stiffner", but I have reason to know you, the buyer, will use it as a roll bar, I may be liable for its fitness of purpose as a roll bar, even though I didn't refer to it as such.

However, most manufacturers still refer to them as something other than roll bars anyway.

Litigious, yes. Remember, anyone can sue anyone for just about anything.

Don't you just love this country.