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Old 01-04-2004, 12:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Latest Info from NAIAS.

Today is the start of media previews from the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.

I will follow local radio, TV, newspaper, and internet sources, for the latest info, and post it here. Of course, next Saturday will be the first public showing of the C6 Corvette at NAIAS, and it goes without saying....I'll be there with camera.

Today's latest:

* GM will produce last year's concept car, the Pontiac Solstice. Solstice will be powered by a 2.4L Ecotec 4 cylinder engine that can produce 170 hp. Solstice will be the first vehicle built on the Kappa vehicle underpinnings to reach showrooms. GM might roll out two other examples of possible production vehicles: The Chevrolet Nomad, and Saturn Curve.

* Ford plans to unveil the Ford Five Hundred, the all new Mustang coupe, and a hi=performance Shelby Cobra concept car. Mercury will also get a new midsize sedan, the Montego.

* Pirelli SpA is expected to announce a major deal to provide tires to several new Ford models. Pirelli has a new plant in Rome, Ga and will supply tires for the '05 Mustang GT, as well as the Ford Five Hundred, Mercury Montego, and the "crossover" Freestyle vehicle.

Special thanks to Ed Garsten (Detroit News writer), for his timely, accurate articles about the auto industry.

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Old 01-04-2004, 12:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Thanks Zippy!!
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Old 01-04-2004, 12:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hey Zippy, I read the note below in Autoweek about the Blue Devil. If you get a chance to take any pics of this beast it would be much appreciated

Chevy is not confirming the existence of a super-high-performance Corvette called the Blue Devil (AW, Dec. 22), but officials acknowledge it’s possible that engineering and racing development prototypes based on the sixth-generation Corvette do exist and may have picked up the moniker.

And yes, as many AutoWeek readers have suggested, the Blue Devil name was chosen intentionally to catch the attention of General Motors CEO and Duke University Blue Devil alumnus Rick Wagoner.

Chevy officials say they have no production plans for the 600-hp, 7.0-liter V8-powered Blue Devil, despite information obtained by AutoWeek pointing to a 2006 production debut of the $100,000 sports car. The production C6’s worldwide premiere is just days away at the Detroit auto show.
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Old 01-04-2004, 12:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Old 01-04-2004, 12:53 PM   #5 (permalink)
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THE PRODUCTION OF HYDROFORMED CHASSIS BEGINS TO FILTER THROUGHOUT GM LINEUP

Corvette owners know all about the wave. It’s the acknowledgement to fellow Corvette drivers that you’re both members of the fraternity, sharing and participating in the dream.

There are other vehicles like that: cars, SUVs and even motorcycles with a charisma that speaks to the young and young at heart - an instantly recognizable character that rolls with you like an extension of your personality.

The Chevy Nomad is like that.

The Nomad is a concept car built by GM and introduced at the 2004 North American International Auto Show. It’s not a sedan, wagon, SUV or any other categorizable vehicle, but it simultaneously conveys presence and practicality.

“The Nomad is the type of vehicle that creates an instant bond with certain personalities,” said Simon Cox, design director, GM Advanced Design, United Kingdom. “It’s a personal vehicle that carries the expressions and emotions of the driver, causing them to seek out enthusiasts of the same mindset.”

Based on GM’s new Kappa architecture, which also serves as the foundation for the Pontiac Solstice production model and Saturn Curve concept, the Nomad represents another line of thought when it comes to leveraging a new sports car platform. Its off-the-hook styling is readily identifiable as a Chevrolet, but with a contemporary flair.

And since it’s Kappa-based, the Nomad is rear-wheel drive, boasting independent front and rear suspensions attached to a rigid chassis that uses a pair of full-length hydroformed frame rails as its foundation. To make room for rear-seat riders in its 2+2 configuration, the Nomad rides on a 107-inch wheelbase - 2 inches longer than other Kappa architecture-based concepts.

A turbocharged Ecotec 2.2-liter four-cylinder engine powers the Nomad, which also features a new Hydra-Matic 5L40-E electronically controlled five-speed automatic transmission with finger-operated tap shifting. Through the use of variable engine valve timing, valve lift and duration can be adjusted throughout the rpm range to improve fuel economy, emissions and performance. The turbocharged Ecotec is good for 250 horses - 87 horses more, for example, than a certain “miniscule” chap from across the pond.

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Old 01-04-2004, 12:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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THE ADDED FLEXIBILITY WILL ALLOW GM TO COMPETE IN ALL SIZE SEGMENTS IN TIME! IMHO

SOLSTICE ADDS NEW DIMENSION TO PONTIAC’S PERFORMANCE RENAISSANCE



[img]
http://www.fototime.com/0E37D90EA874E73/standard.jpg[/img]

interior





The beginning of GM's hydroformed frame rail conversion from unitbody chassis and look how it relates to the C5



Front view


opened and full view:


DETROIT - Bringing the popular concept car to life, GM announced production of the Pontiac Solstice roadster as a 2006 model. The vehicle is expected in dealer showrooms in fall 2005.

First shown as a concept at the 2002 North American International Auto Show (NAIAS) in Detroit, the Solstice immediately gained a huge following, both inside and outside of General Motors. Designed from the ground up in less than four months, the 2002 Solstice concept car promised thrilling, open-air driving freedom in the spirit of the great roadsters of the past.

Built on GM’s new Kappa architecture, the production model remains true to the original Solstice concept, including rear-wheel drive, two-passenger seating and a reverse hinged clamshell hood that opens to reveal a sophisticated double overhead cam variable-valve four-cylinder engine.

“True to the thinking behind the original concept, the production Solstice is all about being a ‘back-to-basics’ roadster with gorgeous lines and fun-to-drive characteristics,” said Bob Lutz, GM vice chairman of product development and chairman of GM North America. “The key enabler of Solstice is the new Kappa rear-wheel-drive architecture and component set, which allows us to rapidly and efficiently develop an appealing family of compact and affordable sports cars.”

Emotional design, rigid backbone
Strong response to the 2002 Solstice concept vehicle helped put the sports car on the fast track to production. But while the concept was designed with production-style elements, there was no compact rear-wheel-drive platform at GM on which to build it. Creating a production version of the concept vehicle required marrying the Solstice’s curvaceous design to an entirely new performance body-chassis architecture.

The robust Kappa architecture features state-of-the-art, full-length hydroformed frame rails and a stamped steel structural tunnel to provide a solid structure to enhance vehicle handling.

To ensure an affordable, world-class driving experience, Solstice was created with a clever blend of all-new technology and proven GM components.
Solstice’s power is created by a new 2.4-liter variable-valve version of the Ecotec DOHC four-cylinder engine, producing about 170 horsepower. Its twin-cam, multi-valve design provides stirring, high-revving performance, while the engine’s lightweight, all-aluminum construction helps optimize the vehicle’s front-to-rear balance. At the start of production, Solstice will be offered with a close-ratio Aisin five-speed manual transmission.

“With the concept vehicle, people immediately felt the emotional appeal of Solstice’s design and back-to-basics philosophy - it’s about performance, but in a fun, agile, affordable roadster,” said Lynn Myers, Pontiac-GMC general manager. “All the stops were pulled out to make sure the production model delivers an exhilarating driving experience to capitalize on the ‘promise’ of the Solstice’s design.”

Faithfulness to the concept can be seen in Solstice’s proportions, which are comparable in terms of overhangs, wheelbase and track width. Independent front and rear suspensions that feature independent SLA designs with forged aluminum upper and lower control arms contribute to responsive handling. Monotube shock absorbers and coil springs contribute to uncompromised handling response and sporty driving characteristics while the wheels-at-the-corners wide stance enhances handling. Eighteen-inch wheels and tires are standard, as are four-wheel disc brakes.

The interior is oriented around the driver, with a clean design and intuitive controls. “The interior of the Solstice is surprisingly spacious, especially for a smaller car,” said Lori Queen, vehicle line executive for GM’s small cars. “We wanted to create a comfortable environment suitable for longer drives without sacrificing the ‘personal’ feeling of a driver’s car.”

Clean lines, clever details
Designers worked carefully to transfer the clean lines and taut proportions of the concept vehicle to the production model.

“Put them side by side and it’s very difficult to tell the production model from the concept,” said Franz Von Holzhausen, design manager. “The front and rear fascias are slightly longer on the production model, but overall the car remains faithful to the concept - it’s a minimalist approach that emphasizes proportion.”

The Solstice’s proportions are accented with five-spoke wheels and a low, wide stance. A dual-port grille and expressive lighting at all corners instantly identifies the car as a Pontiac. Unexpected details include a body-color extension into the passenger compartment that gives the Solstice an integrated appearance when the top is down. In fact, the top folds flat into the rear clamshell opening, providing a smooth seamless appearance.

“There is no visible stack from the folded top to disturb the shape,” said Von Holzhausen. “In fact, there are no extraneous lines whatsoever; it has a tight, purposeful look, as if it were shrink-wrapped around the driver.”

“We insisted on a lower ride height to ensure the car’s sporty appearance,” said Von Holzhausen. “That makes it the lowest, most ground-hugging car at GM. We were adamant that the Solstice look absolutely right from all angles.”

Creative leveraging of GM resources, as well as clever solutions to other needs, helped complete the Solstice’s design efficiently and economically. For example, the rear corner lamps are from the GMC Envoy, while door handles, fog lamps, seats, engine and transmission are shared with other GM vehicles.

However, some parts are all Solstice. The taillamps, for instance, were designed with special reflectors to eliminate the need for a separate side marker light. This not only contributes to the car’s sleek design, but also eliminates the cost of a separate marker lens and bulb.

Interior design is equally purposeful and clever, with details like pedals placed for easy heel-and-toe driving and a cockpit-style instrument panel that sweeps around the driver. Designers also worked with chassis engineers to optimize the placement of the shifter. Manual shifter throws between gear changes were studied and shortened.

“When you sit down in the car, your hand naturally falls onto the shifter,” said Vicki Vlachakis, interior designer. “It’s a very intuitive, comfortable environment, and the feel of the shifter between gears is very short and precise. Designers and chassis engineers worked together to tune the best placement.”

A turning point
The production Solstice announcement further enhances a re-energized Pontiac lineup that already includes the all-new GTO and G6, Grand Prix, Vibe and a V-8-powered Bonneville GXP.

“Solstice is a vehicle that captures the passion and pleasure of open-air driving,” said Myers. “Everyone at GM recognized that adding it to Pontiac’s portfolio would make another strong statement about Pontiac’s renaissance.”

Its fast-track approval and development process come on the heels of a similar rapid decision process that helped launch the 2004 GTO in 18 months.

“The GTO and Solstice complement each other by offering ‘book-end’ approaches to Pontiac’s performance offerings,” said Myers. “Like its V-8 powered stable mate, Solstice adds another dimension to a growing lineup of clean, uncompromising performance vehicles.”

=====================================




IT STARTED WITH THE C5...THEN THE PROFIT CENTER TRUCKS..NOW SPORTS CARS AND SOON FULL SIZE AND MID SIZE SEDANS! IMHO GM has finally decided..The unitbody chassis is not the only way to fly..

This new technology will finally give GM the torsional rigidity and flexibility to compete in the automotive world at a lower cost structure for doing what it can do best..Add flair and style throughout its lineup when it sees fit..

Anybody remember when the automotive industry changed body styles every year or two! This new technology will allow it much easier..(not thatevery year is necessary but you can see the added benefit of flexibility)

GM will probably fuc it up and not take full advantage of it....but it has the means to deliver what the consumer wants more easily...using this construction meathod..

The days of cookie cutter brand differeniation can end with production meathods like this..IMHO..

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Old 01-04-2004, 01:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Looks like Chrysler is jumping in.


The Chrysler ME412 is a mid-engine, quad-turbo V12-powered supercar boasting 850 hp, 850 lb-ft and with ambitions no lower than to out-Enzo Ferrari. That's no mere surprise, it's an ambush. What could be more unexpected than a mid-engine supercar from Chrysler?

ONLY A HANDFUL OF people knew. Most of the folks working up Chrysler’s crop of new show cars for 2004 weren’t let in on it. Most of the press didn’t catch wind of it until it drove onto the stage at the end of the company’s Jan. 4 press conference revealing those “ordinary” concept cars. Surprise was the point. After hijacking attention at the 2003 Detroit show with the Viper-powered Dodge Tomahawk motorbike, the top guns at Chrysler wanted to do something even bigger this year in a bid to upstage the arrivals of the expected stars from across town, the 2005 Ford Mustang and Chevy Corvette.

“Tomahawk was somewhat tongue in cheek, a design statement more than an engineering statement. We wanted to do something really credible, and we wanted something nobody would expect from Chrysler,” says Chrysler COO Wolfgang Bernhard, explaining the origins of the project that became the Chrysler ME412. It’s a mid-engine, quad-turbo V12-powered supercar boasting 850 hp, 850 lb-ft and with ambitions no lower than to out-Enzo Ferrari. That’s no mere surprise, it’s an ambush.

What could be more unexpected than a mid-engine supercar from Chrysler? How about this statement from none other than division president and CEO Dieter Zetsche: “It’s not just a concept. It’s a prototype.”

Calm down, he’s not promising to build it for sale. Not yet, anyway. He is saying that it’s fully engineered—on computers, though the car itself wasn’t finished being built at Metalcrafters until Dec. 29—and the company intends to run it this spring to prove it can meet the ambitious performance targets. If a business case exists, Chrysler says it could start building such a machine in about a year.

A business case? Well, yes, they didn’t take time to build one before they built the car. No one really knows if the customers who can front up the money for a Ferrari Enzo or Porsche Carrera GT would splash similarly extravagant funds on a car that wears the same badge on its nose as the Town & Country minivan in the next garage bay. The ME412 is being built to supercar standards of material and craftsmanship, however, so it would have to command a similar price. Are there enough customers to warrant the effort?

Well, let’s show ’em what they’d get. When the project began, it was a notion shared by Bernhard, Zetsche and design chief Trevor Creed, who came up with it in a meeting after last year’s Detroit show. This year’s crop of concept cars had already been assigned back in December 2002. The project started out a month late, then. So the development of the thing in only 11 months, coordinating parts suppliers from seven nations and linking them all via computer, was as big a challenge as engineering the car itself. Bernhard—who had ridden the Tomahawk onto the show stage and drove the ME412 this year—had a head start, though. Before joining Chrysler, he was managing director of Mercedes-AMG, where he had acted as the engine supplier for the then-new Pagani Zonda and had personal insight into the development of a supercar, and a few contacts to help get things started. He wasn’t the first to wonder what would happen if a major automaker turned its engineering and acquisition resources to the development of a supercar (the Cadillac Cien was a similar exercise), but he was in a position to make things happen. And the key here was to really and truly engineer the car to achieve performance targets that exceed the world’s best in production.
It was Chrysler’s own Lou Rhodes who got the call to act as chief engineer on the project. After laying out the basic parameters to get the target performance specifications—aerodynamics, weight distribution, power, torque, etc.—Chrysler contacted AMG directly and asked that it develop an appropriate engine. This couldn’t be minor. To have a clear performance margin over the competition, it had to propel the car to 60 mph in less than 3.0 seconds, to 100 mph in less than 6.5, hit the quarter-mile in 11.0 seconds or better, and carry it to a 240-mph (400-km/h) top speed.

“We told AMG we needed 800 hp and it should weigh 500 pounds,” says Bernhard. This engine did not exist until the Chrysler project demanded it—it’s not a version of a Mercedes engine, though AMG is obviously influenced by the association in the way it approaches its work. It’s an AMG-engineered powerplant that, like the parts from other suppliers, was developed to the manufacturer’s specifications. “What they came up with was 850 hp, but it weighs 525 pounds. We said we could work with that,” said Rhodes.
The all-alloy engine is a 365-cid/5980-cc dry-sump V12 with four turbochargers and dual-core intercoolers, a 6800-rpm redline and makes 142 hp/liter. “We started with the engine and built the car around it,” said Bernhard, “where some others start with the car and adapt an engine into it.”

The car they designed around it is a carbon fiber and aluminum honeycomb monocoque with an alloy rear subframe to support the drivetrain and to help toward making the car reparable if crashed from behind (the Enzo and Zonda have alloy subframes, the Carrera GT doesn’t). The front end has a carefully designed composite structure to meet crash standards. That seven-speed transaxle is a double-clutch Ricardo unit with paddle-shift selectors, the brakes are carbon-ceramic matrix with six-piston aluminum calipers, the front wheels are 19x10 inches, the rear 20x12.5, and they wear Michelin tires developed specifically for this project in 265/35ZR-19 and 335/30ZR-20 dimensions. Power-assisted rack-and-pinion steering, with a 16:1 overall ratio, 2.4 turns lock-to-lock and a 36-foot turning circle, keeps the driver in charge of direction, but not without an assist from electronics. ABS and traction control are integrated with the powertrain management system in an advance stability management program offering up a driver-selectable range of at least three racetrack modes, one highway and one street mode, so the driver can more or less specify the amount of slip he wants to allow. All-independent pushrod suspension at both ends with a long travel (155 mm in back, where the class average is between 70 mm and 90 mm) uses electronically adjustable shocks in a unique active suspension system that draws on a reservoir of fluid stored in the back.

If that sounds a lot like your standard supercar specification of the early 21st century, well, Creed notes that this past year has been something like the year of the supercar, with magazines road testing such exotics as the Zonda, Koenigsegg CC, Enzo, Carrera GT and so on. “Every time we read one of these things, I’d find some
criticism and call Bernhard up and say, ‘Our car isn’t going to do that, is it?’” laughs Creed. “[Magazine testers] really wrote our spec book.”

As long as Creed has the floor, let’s look at the design. Tom Tremont, vp for advanced product design strategy, oversaw the project. With concept cars already in the works for this year’s show, and that desire to keep the lid down on the project, choosing a designer had to be done judiciously. The studios were charged with an “exercise” that was presented as a loosening-up program, just to flex the designers a bit by asking them to sketch a supercar concept for Chrysler.

“At first mention, this challenge was met with a blank stare,” admits Creed. “We don’t have anything in our history to draw on for this. It was a real challenge.”

From a slew of sketches, one stood out. Brian Nielander had penned a forward-leaning design that looked like it was in motion even on paper. It was fresh, and “something about it said Chrysler.” It didn’t have anywhere near enough cooling and ventilation openings in it, but the engineers saw where these could be worked into the bodywork without damaging the theme.

“Rather than do cooling as an afterthought,” says Bernhard, “we built it in from day one. Two-thirds of the energy in gasoline that you pump into the engine has to get out of the car through the cooling system.” Incorporating what Bernhard calls the “highest-capacity cooling module in the supercar business—this was not negotiable with our suppliers at AMG” was just the beginning of engineering influences on the shape. Another was the rigid discipline to achieve the 1300-kg (2860-pound) weight target, putting the ME412 at 3.4 pounds per hp (the Enzo is at 4.2, published figures on the Bugatti Veyron work out to 4.1, the McLaren F1 was at 3.9).

Then there’s aero. The computers say the ME412 has a 0.358 Cd minimum, with negative lift at both ends. There’s 34.5 pounds of downforce at 65 mph, 737 pounds at 186 mph. A spoiler at the tail moves backward 100 mm and raises up 10 mm as speed climbs to 200 mph, then flattens out again to reduce drag and help the car hit its 240-mph top-speed target.

The designer also was required to incorporate 39 inches of headroom, with the objective of being the only supercar that will allow really tall people to fit easily into the cockpit. The wheelbase is 110 inches, nearly six inches longer than an Enzo’s and two inches longer than the Zonda’s. The ME412 is 44.9 inches tall, 178 inches long and 78.7 inches wide.

Nielander’s exterior features forward-leaning lines that include the rooftop satellite navigation and radio antenna with integrated CHMSL. The indented lines on the forward cargo-compartment lid resemble those on the Crossfire. While alternatives were examined, standard door hinges were found to provide the best access to the cabin and also helped keep the weight down—scissors and gullwings may be flashy, but they’re often heavy and the functional advantages are minor. There are 96 red LEDs in the taillight assemblies, which perform brake, parking and turn-signal functions.

The interior design was by Mark Walters, who did the Tomahawk, and focused tightly on the notion of craftsmanship and use of materials that reflect the car’s nature as engineering exercise. The proprietary seat design is executed in a buttery leather, with the interior trimmed out in ultrasuede, metal and carbon fiber. There is no carpet, the floors being lined in a rubber-foam sandwich material.

The exposed portions of the carbon fiber tub use a molded-in color borrowed from a high-tech surfboard design. The security electronics for the keyless ignition are housed in a carbon fiber key fob shaped to resemble the car itself, while the red “start” button on the dashboard is lit and turns green when the engine fires.

The Nakamichi stereo will be heard if the driver so chooses—Chrysler acquired a dual-pane rear window from the supplier who provides the Saleen S7’s backlight, to insulate the cabin from the engine noise and heat.

Ah, but will there be owners? And if not, what’s the point of such a detailed engineering prototype?

“Whether we build it, and where and how we build it, depends on customer reaction and testing of the prototype,” asserts Zetsche. If enough customers want such a thing to warrant production, what might it cost? “All we know right now is that the Ford GT is at $150,000 or so, the Enzo is at $659,000, and that our car would cost somewhere in between there, depending on volume and final specification.”

Bernhard, though, says the ME412 has value for the corporation even if it is never built.

“This is an engineering feat. The most difficult test you can put engineers to is a supercar or race car done in less than a year,” he says. “Designers will look to this vehicle as a guiding star for other Chryslers.”

Zetsche says it establishes, with the Pacifica, Crossfire and 300C, the image he wants for Chrysler of “elegance, not lifeless elegance, but very spirited elegance.”

The discipline of holding to the weight target, working rapidly with suppliers to meet performance parameters and so forth, he said, makes the ME412 team members a core “center of excellence.” They will bring that experience to bear on other projects. And for 10 days, of course, the ME412 will ambush attention in Detroit.

That’s all very nice. But we’re itching to slip behind the wheel, push that red button, watch it turn green and see how it goes. Spring, we’re promised. Bring it on.
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Old 01-04-2004, 01:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zippy
Today is the start of media previews from the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
Today's latest:

* GM will produce last year's concept car, the Pontiac Solstice. Solstice will be powered by a 2.4L Ecotec 4 cylinder engine that can produce 170 hp. Solstice will be the first vehicle built on the Kappa vehicle underpinnings to reach showrooms. GM might roll out two other examples of possible production vehicles: The Chevrolet Nomad, and Saturn Curve.



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Old 01-04-2004, 01:17 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Dodge Sling Shot Concept World Debut - Detroit - January 4, 2004 - Trevor Creed, Senior Vice President - Chrysler Group Design, describes Dodge Sling Shot's bold new sports car styling. Designed from the ground up for fun-to-drive excitement, Sling Shot was designed with affordability and fuel efficiency as key parts of its basic design. Sling Shot features a rear-mounted 3-cylinder, gasoline engine that is tuned to deliver 100 bhp and 0-50 mph time of about 10 seconds. A five-speed gearbox, rack-and-pinion steering, four-wheel independent suspension and four-wheel disc brakes complete the driver-oriented characteristics while delivering up to 45 mpg.
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Old 01-04-2004, 01:21 PM   #10 (permalink)
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New Lotus
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Old 01-04-2004, 01:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
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New Morgan.


The Morgan Aero 8 (above) bound for our shores in July will sticker for “around about” $95,000, said president Charles Morgan, grandson of company founder H.F.S. Morgan. There will be 100 2004 Aero 8s for the nine dealers in the United States and between 200 and 250 2005s. That’s out of a worldwide annual production capacity of 1000. Power comes from a BMW 4.4-liter V8 driving the rear wheels through a six-speed manual.
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Old 01-04-2004, 01:42 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Thanks for sharing the information and pictures. Keep 'em coming.
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Old 01-04-2004, 02:05 PM   #13 (permalink)
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That Lotus is shuh-weeeet (at least it if wasn't yellow, it would be).

I wish the C6 looked like that :-/. Something a bit nastier looking, instead of slight tweaks to the current style.
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Old 01-04-2004, 02:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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There are certainly some cool cars coming down the pike pretty soon.

Now all we have to do is get people to start buying cars again, and stop buying these bloated, wallowing, boat-like, gas-guzzling, slow-cornering, view-blocking, terrible-handling, hidious-looking, parkingspace-hogging, foreign-oil-dependence creating monstrocities called "SUVs".

I am _so_ sick of getting stuck behind these things as they attempt to go around a corner at 0.00004 MPH to avoid tipping over. The 70's had its bell bottoms. The 90's had its SUVs. It's time to call it a bad idea, and move on. Look at all the cool cars people could be buying instead.
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Old 01-04-2004, 04:54 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Thanks for sharing the information and pictures. Keep 'em coming.
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