I am still new to this forum and this site, but i am a fan of GM cars.
I am working on my car right now for some nice mods. But i am still confused about what to put on it from SC's.
I was looking really in to The Procharger the D1-SC but i was confused with the tuners kit, what do they mean by it.
As your experience in this car, i wanted to ask about what things that i need to get the maximum out of my stock LS7 without changing anything in the internals of the engine..
Some questions that i was looking for their answers are
- What kind of boost i am looking at wih a D1-SC?
- What AFR should i have to get a safe tune?
- Do i need headers and a Cat-Back?
- And last but not least what will the rwhp i will be looking for?
Thanks again guys i would really appreciate your help here. I dont want to spend my money in the wrong direction.
I am still new to this forum and this site, but i am a fan of GM cars.
I am working on my car right now for some nice mods. But i am still confused about what to put on it from SC's.
I was looking really in to The Procharger the D1-SC but i was confused with the tuners kit, what do they mean by it.
As your experience in this car, i wanted to ask about what things that i need to get the maximum out of my stock LS7 without changing anything in the internals of the engine..
Some questions that i was looking for their answers are
- What kind of boost i am looking at wih a D1-SC?
I would look at a P1SC rather than the D1. Boost no more than 4.5 lbs with stock internals and stock heads
- What AFR should i have to get a safe tune?
around 12.0
- Do i need headers and a Cat-Back?
No
- And last but not least what will the rwhp i will be looking for?
Close to 600rwhp
Thanks again guys i would really appreciate your help here. I dont want to spend my money in the wrong direction.
But when i checked through the net, through other forums, and some places else. They always used the D1 instead of the P1 but they always told me no to go over 5.5 psi but with Headers and Cat-Backs.
So i posted the same questions here again but not the same answers.
Why would P1 be better than D1 if i am looking at 5.5 psi on the D1 with Long-Tubes and high flow cats and a corsa cat-back?
But when i checked through the net, through other forums, and some places else. They always used the D1 instead of the P1 but they always told me no to go over 5.5 psi but with Headers and Cat-Backs.
So i posted the same questions here again but not the same answers.
Why would P1 be better than D1 if i am looking at 5.5 psi on the D1 with Long-Tubes and high flow cats and a corsa cat-back?
So what do you think.
And have anyone tried the D1 here in this forum.
Yes, I have had a D1 and it is an excellent blower...however, unless you are going to go with different pistons and heads to lower the CR, you are pretty much at the highest point you are going to go with a blower. The D1 is only necessary if you are going to boost at higher levels than the P1 is comfortable with. Why bother.
As for the headers and catbacks, I suppose there is minor value in LT headers with a blower. The catbacks are for sound only and don't mean squat in the power discussion.
You wanna run 5.5lbs of boost on your 11.5 CR and non forged piston engine, that's your call. I'm sure that all of the folks on the other forums that advised this have C6 Z06's with blowers on them and have plenty of experience. If you are just wanting to play dyno god with your car and get the best numbers, irregardless of safety and engine longevity then boost at whatever levels you want. If you want trouble free power, almost 600rwhp and no ongoing maintenence issues, stick with the 4.5lbs of boost.
Yes, I have had a D1 and it is an excellent blower...however, unless you are going to go with different pistons and heads to lower the CR, you are pretty much at the highest point you are going to go with a blower. The D1 is only necessary if you are going to boost at higher levels than the P1 is comfortable with. Why bother.
As for the headers and catbacks, I suppose there is minor value in LT headers with a blower. The catbacks are for sound only and don't mean squat in the power discussion.
You wanna run 5.5lbs of boost on your 11.5 CR and non forged piston engine, that's your call. I'm sure that all of the folks on the other forums that advised this have C6 Z06's with blowers on them and have plenty of experience. If you are just wanting to play dyno god with your car and get the best numbers, irregardless of safety and engine longevity then boost at whatever levels you want. If you want trouble free power, almost 600rwhp and no ongoing maintenence issues, stick with the 4.5lbs of boost.
Good luck with your decisions.
Mike
So as per what i understand from you, going with a D1 and a 5.5 psi of boost will be risky or as we say at the peak.
But what i am thinking of, I have a truck which is charged by Magna MP112 and the max that i got from it is 13psi but now when i wanted to go over the blower wont help me. I have to buy another kit to raise it up.
So to avoid what happened with me in my truck, i was thinking of the D1. To run it on a low boost a 5.5 or 4.5 as you say.
Do you think it will take it on a D1 and a 4.5lbs of boost or no?
If yes it is just a differences of $300 between the P1 and the D1.
I need your help on this engine. I can play around as much as i want with the LS1 but i dont have any experience on this engine.
So your help is appreciated here.
You give me your recommendations on this i want to get the maximum out of this engine and to run safely.
So as per what i understand from you, going with a D1 and a 5.5 psi of boost will be risky or as we say at the peak.
But what i am thinking of, I have a truck which is charged by Magna MP112 and the max that i got from it is 13psi but now when i wanted to go over the blower wont help me. I have to buy another kit to raise it up.
So to avoid what happened with me in my truck, i was thinking of the D1. To run it on a low boost a 5.5 or 4.5 as you say.
Do you think it will take it on a D1 and a 4.5lbs of boost or no?
If yes it is just a differences of $300 between the P1 and the D1.
I need your help on this engine. I can play around as much as i want with the LS1 but i dont have any experience on this engine.
So your help is appreciated here.
You give me your recommendations on this i want to get the maximum out of this engine and to run safely.
Thanks again Mike for your help
What I am trying to say (and obviously not doing a very good job of it) is that the D1 is a fine blower and is one step up from the P1, just not sure if that's important on a C6Z. The LS7 engine has a compression ratio of 11.5 to 1 and does not have forged pistons. That is just not conducive to high boost applications.
The D1 has a max flow of 1400 cfm and a max boost of 32 psi compared to the P1's 1200 cfm and 30 psi. The maximum impeller rpm is 62,000 in both models and the internal step-up of both blowers is the same at 4.10 to 1.
Inlet and outlet hose size is the same in both models as well as the inducer and exducer diameters.
What that all means is that the D1 and P1 are very, very comparable units except that the D1 will produce a little more boost and flow. The point I am making to you is that unless you are going to make major, major changes in your compression ratio (which would include different heads with a larger combustion chamber AND dished pistons) plus forged pistons, you are not going to be using anywhere near the amount of boost available on the P1...much less the D1.
If you plan a major engine overhaul in the near future and intend to try and make considerably more boost, then yes, the D1 will keep you from having to buy an upgraded kit.
I read these posts and your reply ,(along with other threads) and I am impressed with your knowledge and can't wait to meet you at the Fest in BG.
DW
Thanks for the compliments but to be honest, my expertise is pretty localized. Most of the knowledge I have on this subject comes from the fact that Procharger is located here in KC and I have met, drank with, am friends with, etc half the Procharger employees at one point or another. I seen the units being developed, built, and tested.
Another advantage is that I spend quite a bit of time over at MCRacing here in town and all of those guys are friends. They have sold and installed hundreds and hundreds of Prochargers on Vette's, Mustangs, GTO's, F-bodies, etc and I have been able to watch them work. They installed the very first Procharger designed P1-SC kit in a C6Z several months ago and then we all went to the track and watched it do a 10.8 pass in very shitty conditions right after the install.
Over the past 5 years, MCRacing has worked closely with Procharger in many areas (including developement and tuning) and in fact, my C5Z was the 'mule' for the new Stage II kit which is a terrific bracket and tensioner set-up. I can't even begin to tell you how many people worked on it and how much trial and error went into the final package.
Anyway, enough of the Procharger and MC Racing advertisement. Just didn't want you to get the impression I know more than I do.
Hey Mike,
ditto on the wonderful expertise, but heres one not to thread hijack...Can you explain to me the benfeit of running the F1-c on a C6Z w/ heads/cam/exhaust and 428cid???? Email me if you dont mind as I dont get a chance to check this board... thanks so much!
Hey Mike,
ditto on the wonderful expertise, but heres one not to thread hijack...Can you explain to me the benfeit of running the F1-c on a C6Z w/ heads/cam/exhaust and 428cid???? Email me if you dont mind as I dont get a chance to check this board... thanks so much!
myws62fast4u@aol.com
Obviously not familiar with any specific car you may be referring to so the answer will be nothing more than a WAG.
The F1-C and F1-R are primarily for big power and high boost applications, allowing as much as 1200 hp before it runs out of steam (1300 for the F1-R, if I remember correctly). It has a max boost of about 38psi, impeller rpm's of 74,000, max flow of 1850cfm (2000cfm on the R, I think) and a step-up of 5.4 to 1.
It is definately overkill for anyone not building a monster set-up.
When you say 428 cid, can I assume you mean the stock ci of the LS7 engine for the Z06 or could we be talking about a built engine and block...perhaps a C5R, LSX, DART Iron Eagle or a World Warhawk LS7X?
The reason I ask is this......certainly you can use a C6Z and build a hp monster with appropriate block, heads, pistons, cam, crank, rods, fuel system, etc and the F1-C will compliment that set-up nicely.
You can even swap heads on an LS7 to lower the CR (taking it from 11.5:1 down to maybe 10.5:1 or so) which would enable more boost (although I personally wouldn't boost too high without forged dished pistons). It would still seem to me that an F1-C would be overkill on an LS7 with just different heads (assuming lower CR) since you would be able to use a P1 or D1 and still have more than enough flow and boost to do the trick.
Anyway, your question is pretty vague so any answer I give would have to be equally vague. Maybe more specifics would help.
What do you think of the kit the ATI Prochargere provide for the C6Z. The one that comes with P1-SC and 6 lbs of psi. They have 2 different kits.
1) 4.5 psi (587 rwhp)
2) 6 psi (622 rwhp)
Which one to go with for the C6Z do you think??
Thanks again for your help..
Orangy
The only difference between the 2 'kits' is the pulley size. Since the blower pulley is the least expensive part of the kit (peanuts compared to the rest of components), I guess a person could buy the kit and an extra pulley to experiment with. It takes very little time and effort to swap out a pulley.
The key would be tuning in my opinion. If I was going to boost any higher than 4.5psi, I'd have to have a world of faith in my tuner.
At 6psi, I think a person is pushing it a bit. One bad tank of gas pulling timing could be somewhat dangerous but I guess it all depends on your attitude about risk. If you just want maximum dyno numbers but are not likely to do a lot of street racing or track racing, the risk is not very high with higher boost. If you take it to the max a lot, the risk goes up.
Let's face it, putting a blower on the LS7 is still pretty new. There is not a lot of case history to work with. If I say "go with the smaller pulley and more boost", tomorrow we hear that someone with the same set-up just blew their engine. If I say "screw it, use the larger pulley and stay safe", tomorrow we hear someone bragging about their 640rwhp dyno run with 6 pounds of boost. That's the way these things work so there is never a 'right' answer.
Again, I still believe that tuning is the key. If you have a lot of faith in your tuner and he can keep the A/F very safe you might take your chances with more boost. Your call!
The only difference between the 2 'kits' is the pulley size. Since the blower pulley is the least expensive part of the kit (peanuts compared to the rest of components), I guess a person could buy the kit and an extra pulley to experiment with. It takes very little time and effort to swap out a pulley.
The key would be tuning in my opinion. If I was going to boost any higher than 4.5psi, I'd have to have a world of faith in my tuner.
At 6psi, I think a person is pushing it a bit. One bad tank of gas pulling timing could be somewhat dangerous but I guess it all depends on your attitude about risk. If you just want maximum dyno numbers but are not likely to do a lot of street racing or track racing, the risk is not very high with higher boost. If you take it to the max a lot, the risk goes up.
Let's face it, putting a blower on the LS7 is still pretty new. There is not a lot of case history to work with. If I say "go with the smaller pulley and more boost", tomorrow we hear that someone with the same set-up just blew their engine. If I say "screw it, use the larger pulley and stay safe", tomorrow we hear someone bragging about their 640rwhp dyno run with 6 pounds of boost. That's the way these things work so there is never a 'right' answer.
Again, I still believe that tuning is the key. If you have a lot of faith in your tuner and he can keep the A/F very safe you might take your chances with more boost. Your call!
Mike
Hey Mike,
It is not about the money difference or buying the kit, but what i am talking about here, that i have dealt with superchargers before.
But speaking frankly i have never tried it with high CR engines before. So taking it to high boosts on a 9.1:1 CR engine is way to easy; a couple of tunes in less than 2 hours makes it a daily driven race car. But what we are dealing with here is a monster engine.
But as i have my tuner who tunes our cars, is Lyndon at Wester's Garage. We have tried alot of his tunes on alot of different cars; 07 Cadillac Escalade, 05 GMC Sierra 1500 with a 6.0L enigne and a SC...
So about his tuning; well he is pretty good, no problems till now 2 years of hard driving and high boosts and it is pretty well. But again to our subject, which is the 7.0L engine with 11.5 CR as you said before it is Dicey.
What are your recommendations if i put the smaller pulley to gain the 6 lb of boost.
Do you think if i play well with tune to get the best results with the best A/F Ratio to keep my engine on the safe side, the engine might still be risky?
My driving of the C6Z is 3-5 times a week where is racing in those 3-5 times are 2-4 times. Kick it down for a couple of secs to get to around 140mph then drive normally. Will this be risky on a 6 psi??
Thats what i am trying to figure out...
.......................
Another subject
What things do i need to change in my engine so that i can go higher with boosts??
It is not about the money difference or buying the kit, but what i am talking about here, that i have dealt with superchargers before.
But speaking frankly i have never tried it with high CR engines before. So taking it to high boosts on a 9.1:1 CR engine is way to easy; a couple of tunes in less than 2 hours makes it a daily driven race car. But what we are dealing with here is a monster engine.
But as i have my tuner who tunes our cars, is Lyndon at Wester's Garage. We have tried alot of his tunes on alot of different cars; 07 Cadillac Escalade, 05 GMC Sierra 1500 with a 6.0L enigne and a SC...
So about his tuning; well he is pretty good, no problems till now 2 years of hard driving and high boosts and it is pretty well. But again to our subject, which is the 7.0L engine with 11.5 CR as you said before it is Dicey.
What are your recommendations if i put the smaller pulley to gain the 6 lb of boost.
Do you think if i play well with tune to get the best results with the best A/F Ratio to keep my engine on the safe side, the engine might still be risky?
My driving of the C6Z is 3-5 times a week where is racing in those 3-5 times are 2-4 times. Kick it down for a couple of secs to get to around 140mph then drive normally. Will this be risky on a 6 psi??
Thats what i am trying to figure out...
Your comment about 'monster engine' is the key here, bro.
In my opinion, the LS7 is a damn good engine...but not a monster engine. It has, as we've already, discussed a couple of components that make it non-friendly to higher boost applications...the CR and the non forged pistons.
As I said previously, we don't have lots of past experience with high boost on this engine so it's hard to make a highly educated call on this. I do know of one C6Z that blew the engine at between 6 and 8lbs of boost, I believe. This was done by Procharger...with the owners consent and at his request (he said he had another engine waiting to go if the engine blew and he wanted to push it to the limit). So what does this have to do with 6lbs of boost? It puts in in the gray area IMO. I can't tell you with certainty whether 6lbs of boost is unhealthy or not. What I can say is that when I put a blower on my C6Z (which is inevitable), I will be boosting at 4.5 to 5lbs and no more. Longevity and reliability will the my main goal.
It sounds like you've got a tuner you trust which is a big positive if you want to push further, so that's gonna have to be your call.
Quote:
Another subject
What things do i need to change in my engine so that i can go higher with boosts??
My targert is around 800-900 rwhp..
And thanks Mike for your help again
This is a different question all together...
As I've said before, I think the LS7 engine and block are excellent but....
I don't think this is the type of factory engine designed for 800-900 rwhp applications. I don't think any car manufacturers factory engine is designed to be modified to that level. Truly, the LS7 is a 'hand made' engine and has mostly forged components, but it is still a production car and the engine internals are not going to be 'top of the line racing' components. Not in an $80,000 car!
For an 800-900rwhp car, you're going to have to start with a racing type block that can handle that type of power and pressure. In an earlier answer to ' MyWs62FaST4u', I mentioned the type of block I would recommend for that type of set-up...
Quote:
C5R, LSX, DART Iron Eagle or a World Warhawk LS7X
You will then need 'very' good internals, ie pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft, cam, main bolts, bearings, etc, etc. You will also need a totally different fuel system as well as suspension and driveline upgrades that can stand up to that power level and still provide you some traction.
Obviously, you can't obtain 900rwhp on an NA basis so your gonna have to have a strong, proven FI set-up. That narrows it down to blower, turbos or nitrous. I've already mentioned the characteristics of Procharger's F1-C and F1-R, which happen to be my FI application of choice, but of course there are others.
I've spent a lot of money and down time over the last 3 and 1/2 years discovering what works and what doesn't and I don't think I have the time to try and condense that all in a post or two. Let me just say that you'd better be sure you know what you want and why you want it before trying to build a 900rwhp monster in a C6Z.
Mike
btw, after the Fest next week, I'm putting up a thread for the sale of my C5R block and I'm selling it for about half the price of a new one. That would start you off on the right track
New, any recommendations on a ATi SC
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