Watching Cobra's thread on steering and alignment has got me to thinking about my own...well....finicky steering.
As you may remember I damaged my front fender in a jacking accident several weeks ago and made an appointment for the body shop. While there the tech suspected the car had repair work done as the panel alignments up front were off to a significant degree. The car goes under the knife to fix it in April.
There is "some" potential of frame damage, but I wont know till the car gets opened up. I suspect not, just a poorly executed repair on the cheap.
I changed from my black motorsports wheels (as they were heavy for HPDEs) back to the stockers and had the alignment checked. Afterward the car had a slight pull to the right. I dismissed the shop as incompetent and recently had it aligned in town.
Car STILL pulls to the right. (figure 10-12degree off center to keep the car straight). But there was no pull (noticeable) when the motorsports rims were on. Looking at my old tires (motorsports rims) the front right tire seems to have excessive outside wear as compared to the front left.
What are the possibilities here?
1.) The frame...kind of hard to believe I wouldnt have noticed frame damage at 135+ at Road Atlanta
2.) The rims...possible for the stockers to be off somehow without causing a significant rotating imbalance?
3.) The steering rack--loose play or some other factor that would allow the car to be aligned on the rack and then drift?
4.) Wheel bearings/Hubs?
Smart guys chime in...if after the body repair I still cant align it Ill need to take some other action...
Joe,
Does it actually pull, or is the steering wheel just offcenter (e.g. if you let go of the steering wheel does the car go straight with the wheel offcenter, or does it actually turn with a centered wheel)? Causes and corrections for each are different.
First off, I've never been called "smart". Maybe "smartass"..
Definitely NOT an alignment expert. This is just experience talking:
If the rear toe is misaligned, it can cause similar problems. Are you getting the rear checked as well as the front?
I would make sure the front is correct first, but the rear toe is important, too. The fact you found uneven wear on your right front is a big clue. Find the reason for that.
Good luck.
John
P.S. I see Subdriver beat me to a reply. Pay attention to what he says, Joe. He IS an expert. (and he's not a smartass).
Once the steering wheel is over the car tracks generally straight...it doesnt seem to be fighting me on that. The alignment shop assures me that that the steering wheel was locked down prior to them aligning it. Oh and I misspoke earlier...I have to turn the steering wheel left to stay straight.
If it matters Ive lowered the vehicle 10-15mm on the stock bolts (6 turns each)
Its kind of tough to tell given the odd road cambers in backwoods Louisiana...
Once the steering wheel is over the car tracks generally straight...
Joe
Not sure what this means.
Do you have to apply constant pressure on the wheel to keep the car straight, or does the car track straight, but the wheel points in a funky direction?
If the former, your alignment is off. If the latter, your wheel isn't centered on the alignment, and a pretty easy fix (you can do it yourself).
P.S. I see Subdriver beat me to a reply. Pay attention to what he says, Joe. He IS an expert. (and he's not a smartass).
I'm not sure you're correct on either count there.
Joe,
I'm trying to get to the same thing Mike asked. When I align my car I find it almost impossible to get the steering wheel centered on the first try. I can easily measure and set total toe, but no matter how hard I try, the steering wheel won't be perfectly centered.
After I align my car, I drive it around the block. If I let go of the steering wheel, the car will go straight, but the steering wheel will be off center. To fix this, I have to shorten one front tie rod (screw it into the tie rod end) and lengthen the other one so as not to change total toe, but to change the relative position of the steering wheel to the tires. I think, but I'm not yet positive, that this is your problem.
But, if you have to apply pressure (like it is pulling to one side) to keep it straight, then you have another problem. The problems that could cause pulling are much more varied than what causes an off center steering wheel and include things such as uneven tire pressure, uneven caster side to side, uneven tire tread side to side, camber differences (though this has less of an impact than caster), and maybe a problem with rear thrust angle.
Essentially what Mike and I are asking is if you go down a level road with your hands off the steering wheel, does it go straight, or does it turn? Keep in mind that an angle to the road has a really big impact. If your road is crowned in the center your car will not want to go straight. Try to find a really flat road to evaluate this problem.
Finding that flat stretch of road around here is difficult. L
Louisiana roads vary greatly in degree of crowning and general surface smoothness. I spent a good deal of time on I10 the other day and there were sections where when I let go of the wheel the car would begin to drift to the right and there were sections where it would be arrow straight. Ive never had to apply what I consider excessive force to keep the wheel steady. Tramlining and other factors complicate this.
However...arrow straight NEVER corresponds to the wheel straight up. So Im with Subdriver that I think my steering wheel alignment is off. There may be another, smaller deficiency in the overall alignment of the car but its something I think would be in tolerance if I could get the steering wheel straight.
If my understanding is correct, with crowning of roads and so forth, a little force will be needed to hold the steering wheel straight up and down so the car will track straight. The closer to total toe out I get, the more force I will need, in general. I should not have to "dial in" a steering wheel angle correction to track straight on a crowned road, which is what Im doing now.
Now here is the rookie question. Ive never messed with alignment settings before and Im a little hazy on the adjustment points, how much to adjust, and how to measure. Is there a good primer on this anywhere?
Im willing to delve into it, hey entertainment is thin around here.
While Im at it I will double check tire pressures, tread, etc.
I should not have to "dial in" a steering wheel angle correction to track straight on a crowned road, which is what Im doing now.
That never happens. The car will always track with the road.
What I've done in the past is find a crowned road, and then perch the car on top of the crown, not off to one side. If the car is aligned properly, on a flat road, it wil track straight regardless of toe out. The gotcha here, is that if the car hits a bump, uneven patch of road, or even if a seagull flys near it, with toe out, it WILL change directions.
If you have a scan tool, you can ask it to tell you the steering angle with the car either on the alignment rack, or driving down the road. Without the scan tool, I can generally get mine pretty close on the first try, but it usually takes 2-3 tries to get it dialed in.
I'm still confused though. Is it a steering wheel angle issue, or does the car pull? Also, you might not think its a serious pull, it maybe "close" to you, but when you really get it right, there will be a serious "AHA!" moment.
Though I'm still not 100% sure, it sounds like you have a steering wheel off center issue vice a true alignment issue.
In answer to your question about delving into alignments, you really need equipment to do it right. I have a laser level, scales, toe plates, tape measures, camber/caster gauge and probably a few other things I'm forgetting. All in all thousands of dollars worth of stuff.
However... the steering wheel centered issue can be fixed with none of that (though a set of toe plates would be nice - they cost about $60).
Here is how the off center steering wheel issue can be corrected. Lets assume that with your steering wheel centered, your car will turn to the left. To correct this, you need to turn both tires to the right. This is done by shortening the LF tie rod (by screwing it into the tie rod end)and lengthening the RF tie rod (by screwing it out of the tie rod end). If the two tie rods are turned the same amount, your total toe will not change (though it would be nice to have a set of toe plates to check this).
To turn the tie rod, you need to loosen the lock nut on the tie rod end, then put a 13 mm wrench on the flats of the tie rod and turn it into or out of the tie rod as applicable. Once you've done this once or twice, you'll realize it isn't that hard.
FYI, a friend of mine who had an 03 Z06 had the same problem after an alignment. It would track true, but the steering wheel was off center. I moved his tie rods, checked his toe (as I have toe plates) and his steering is now centered with no pull.
I centered my car on a crowned road going straight (with the steering wheel cocked over), let go of the steering wheel, and the car stayed straight. After time of course the car drifted one way or another.
So for now the tentative steering diagnoses is 95% steering wheel angle problem and perhaps 5% alignment. Tomorrow I will try adjusting the toe equal amounts per side to adjust the steering angle. After we have a car that will go straight when the steering wheel is straight, Ill be better able to tell if there are other alignment issues.
I frankly have lost faith in my local shops, and will get the whole car properly set up (rake, corner weight, ride height, alignments for track and steet) after she gets the frame trued and body work done in April.
Does anyone know of any good race alignment places in the Houston area. I know LG is out that way...either he does it or knows who does.
So for now the tentative steering diagnoses is 95% steering wheel angle problem and perhaps 5% alignment. Tomorrow I will try adjusting the toe equal amounts per side to adjust the steering angle. After we have a car that will go straight when the steering wheel is straight, Ill be better able to tell if there are other alignment issues.
Good luck Joe. Sorry but can't help you with an alignment shop other than LGM (and I'm not even sure he does them).
Took the car to the craft shop and started messing with the toe adjusters...succeeded in making the problem slightly worse. After feeling the steering weighting change, I decided that there was definetly more up than a simple toe adjustment, broke down and took it to a alignment shop.
Glad I did...there were not only toe issues front and rear, and the thrust angle was off. There was something else...uneven caster left to right. L/F caster was about 7degrees, the R/F 4 degrees. The tech was suprised I wanst doing everything I could to hold it one the road.
The car is tracking arrow straight...Im kind of nonplussed about the uneven caster though. Is it an issue for concern and am I leaving something on the table?
But, all in all, the car feels much better than it did
caster stagger (with less in the LF) is what you run on an oval. Factory alignment specs will also put a bit extra into the RF to make the car go straight on a crowned road. On the oval, the lesser caster on the LF helps "pull" the car into the corner when you get off the throttle. On the crowned road, the caster lead makes the car pull a bit to the left on a flat road. But on the crowned road it cancels out.
Otherwise, you want the caster even left to right.
Hell, I don't even know HOW you get 4deg of caster in these cars. The least I've ever been able to get was like 6 while still keeping the camber sane. I'm running a hair over 8 deg on my car, and I need to get that out. The car feels best to me at around 7.25 or so.
Let the buyer beware...I believe I've answered my own question in regards to uneven cross camber side to side.
Found this is in an automotive collision repair curricular...
"If a wheel got knocked back in a collision, the caster on that side would be more negative than the other. While tower movement can affect caster, negative caster is caused primarily by the lower pivot point moving back. Techs should look for a bent lower control arm and check the strut that holds the arm forward. Any structural damage behind the control arm also can cause a caster problem. Any time a front wheel is set back, resulting in an uneven wheelbase, a caster problem should be suspected. Wheelbase can be easily checked by measuring the center of the hub of the front wheel to the center of the hub of the rear wheel on each side and comparing the measurements. Any significant variation can result in a caster problem."
I look back to how when I came to an impasse on the Torch Red Z06 I was dealing on to how the dealer offered me an '03 for the same price...at night...after Id been in there three hours...the uneven tire wear...uneven panel gaps...trouble alignment, and now the mysterious uneven caster.
::sigh::
They all add up to a right front collision that was poorly repaired and resulted in control arm damage at a minimum and a bent frame at worst. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess
I imagine getting my bent car straight will probably help my alignment issues!
Doesnt matter...next month we get her apart and put back together PROPERLY...I just hope that I dont run out of money when shes in the shop...no insurance help on this one.
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