I will change my brake fluid before going to Roebling but I have some questions.
I am thinking of changing my brake pads to Carbotech Panther + front and rear for the track. Do I need to also change rotors for the new pads or can I use the same rotors for my street pads and Carbotechs?
If I dont have to change my rotors for the track do most of you bring an extra set of rotors in case of an emergency? If you do should I bring front and back extra set of rotors or just front?
You can use the same rotors however you will need to bed the new pads to them before using them on the track. It's actually a good idea to bed in new pads on used rotors. Ideally, rotors that have been seasoned with the same pad material that you plan on using, although it isn't critical.
An extra set of front rotors and at least one rear rotor is a good idea although a complete set certainly wouldn't hurt. An extra set of pads is also a good idea. You willl find you go through pads faster than rotors, but that isn't always the case. It really depends on how hard you are on them and how many sessions or days you plan on tracking.
You will want to have some brake fluid with you as well and also a means to bleed the brakes. This is the most important aspect of brake maintenance while at the track. You'll want to bleed them before the event and then after every session or two.
Do you plan on swapping back to street pads when you get done or are the Panther + going to be your street/track pads? If you are going to switch to street pads, I'd suggest going to something a little more agressive on the front like the XP8. The XP8f/Panther+r is an awesome combination with street tires IMO for DE's. If you don't plan on swapping pads between street and track, the Panther+ is an awesome all around combination. That's pretty much what I recommend to anyone planning on doing DE's with their car and don't plan on swapping between street and track pads. And.. Don't mind the dust for the street.
I always bring an extra set of rotors to the track with me. Last time I was at the track, I started seeing small stress cracks in the front after day 1. The rotors held out, but if they would've cracked at the track and I didn't have an extra set, I would've either had to call the weekend quits or hoped that someone else had a set that I could've bought from them.
You don't need to have an extra set of rotors for the track, but that's what I opted to go with. Primarily because I wanted to run drilled and slotted for the street for looks. I wouldn't run drilled on the track because of cracking issues. I also swap to ceramic pads for the street because of their low noise and virtually no dust. Also, if you use the same set of rotors for track and street, they won't look as nice behind your wheels after a DE or two.
One other thing to consider is that if you plan on running in Competition Mode, you will wear the rear rotors quicker than normal. Active handling will apply rear brake to correct the car if you get it out of shape. That's another reason to consider a complete set of 4 rotors as back up.
IMO.. Bare minimum besides the new pads for the track and new race fluid is to have an extra set of 4 rotors on hand. Swapping rotors and street pads is optional.
If the rotors are in good condition before the DE, you should have no problem getting through a weekend with the set of rotors on the car.
On the other hand, rotors are also fairly compact, so taking an extra set isn't that hard, and at $25 a pop at NAPA, they aren't that costly either. I always have a set of bedded rotors (to my pads) on hand as spares when I go to a race.
How far is the track from your home? If it is a long way, having an extra set of rotors is cheap insurance for the money you invested in the DE.
As a data point for you, I normally get six track days out of a set of rotors with Carbotech XP10 front, XP9 rear, which is a pretty aggressive race setup.
Quote:
and at least one rear rotor is a good idea although a complete set certainly wouldn't hurt.
Note: each rotor is directional and is designed to only be used on one corner of the car. When looking down on the top of the rotor, the vains should point aft. It will work if you run it on the wrong side of the car, but the vains won't pull air through them (since the centrifugal force will be trying to move air outwards while the vains are trying to move air inwards) and the rotor will run much hotter on that side. While I've never tried that, I would suspect that would lead to higher pad wear, uneven fade, pulling, and accelerated rotor wear... but I also suspect all would be fairly mild.
Thanks for all the advice. My next question, how do you bed in brake pads?
Carbotech has a bedding procedure that they package with their pads. I'm sure it would be on their site as well. Haven't looked though. It consists of a series of stops. I think it starts from 65 to 30 for about 4 times and then you do some 30 mph to 0 stops. I think that's right. Don't take my word for it. What you're supposed to do is get the pads nice and hot, but not smoking. Then, let them completely cool down for about a half hour. What I do is go out on a road near my place on an off hour when there isn't much traffic. I do the series of stops and then I don't use the brakes at all going the rest of the way home. I just go fast enough not to have to use my brakes. Then, park the car and let the brakes sit and cool. I think this is a lot easier than trying to bed your pads at the track.
Another thing is that most of the Carbotech pads are perfectly fine for driving to the track. That's what I do. I'll put them on before the even and drive to the track and back no problem. The Panther + are very forgiving pads. They don't require much heat at all to get them to work, so they are fine on the street.
Good luck. If you can't find the instructions for bedding the pads, let me know and I'll go down and see if I can find the instructions. I think I put them in one of the Carbotech boxes.
You will want to have some brake fluid with you as well and also a means to bleed the brakes. This is the most important aspect of brake maintenance while at the track. You'll want to bleed them before the event and then after every session or two.
I am going to give you some practical advice from my DE experience that may help--this is my opinion only, and I am not an expert. I have run about 18 days of DEs in my Camaro and in my Z, and I've never had the brakes fail or fade to oblivion on the track.
Bleeding brakes in summer heat is a PITA, in my opinion, and doubly so at the track where all you really want to do is drive. I like to be able to run for two days on a weekend and still have the brakes work--no pad or rotor changes, and no bleeding.
If you'll use Motul 600 or better fluid and do a full Tech II bleed, if this is the first time you are putting in the Motul, and if you are very careful to take a full cooldown lap after each session (2 laps if you can get away with it), you should not need to bleed your brakes over the weekend. I drive my car hard at the track, but not as hard as I might if I were really racing, and sometimes that means leaving a little straight line speed on the table so I do not have to brake from such high speeds. The difference between braking from 125-130 or from 140-145 is significant on the brakes. Since DEs are for fun, and I do not find brake maintenance fun, I am willing to make these concessions.
Also, I have been using Hawk HP-Plus pads F/R--they are dual purpose pads, not track-only, but they have held up very well and allow me to drive the car home without switching pads (I also use Powerslot rotors, f/r, and DRM brake ducts for the front). If you trailer the car or don't mind changing pads when you are hot and tired at the end of the day, then you can use a track-only pad, but I've been very competitive with the Hawks. They do dust up a lot, but they have nice stopping power and fade resistance, and no one in the mid-level run groups (group 3 of 5) is really outbraking me at PCA or BMWCCA events
It is wise to do a bleed after each weekend, but if you survive the weekend, you can take the car home and do it in your garage or have your mechanic do it. I can usually get in several weekends of actual track time with just doing a caliper bleed at the end of the weekend. I try to do a full fluid replacement bleed after every 3 or 4 weekends, but I can sometimes stretch it a few more track days than that. However, if the fluid in the master cylinder looks brown and burnt, whenever that may be, it's probably time to replace it.
You do need to keep an eye on the brakes after each 30 minute (or so) session: If your brakes get spongy and your pedal is going to the floor or is very soft, then you will probably need to bleed at the track before your next session, or just park the car and watch the other guys run. I can usually avoid this problem by following my steps above as to top speed and cooldown. Sometimes after you park it for a while, the pedal firms up and things seem okay. IF so, you can, if you choose, go out for the next session and test your brakes using slower speeds on the warm up laps and see what you have--if they become spongy or you do not have confidence in them, skip the session and bleed or just park it for the rest of the weekend.
I use ATE Super Blue/Amber fluid and though a lot of people use Motul, I believe that the ATE is a better all around fluid and more forgiving. I know several people that do DE's and use the ATE fluid and never have to touch their brakes all weekend. This is after being driven hard at high speed tracks too like Road America. It's not my idea of fun to have to bleed your brakes at the track. If I were racing, I'd step up to a race fluid, but ATE serves my purposes perfectly fine.
You will not have any problem whatsoever driving to the track with Carbotech Panther+. Neither will you have trouble with the Hawk HP+. I know plenty of people that do it. You just will run into noise issues and dusting. I personally don't think you need to go to an all out race pad anyway, if you're using street tires and if you're only doing a DE.
The track I am running at, Roebling, is five hours away from me. I also, if I can help it, dont want to change my pads or flush my brake fluid at the track. So this is what I am hoping to do at home before I leave. Change my brake fluid using ATE and change my pads with either the Hawks HP + or Carbotech Panther + before I leave. I am going to buy all four brake rotors and take with me as spares and also take my old pads as spares. I will also take extra brake fluid with me just in case. When I get bake I plan to replace my pads again with the original Z06 used pads I took off. How does that sound?
What pad is more bang for the buck, Carbotech or Hawks and where is a good place to buy them. Does the brake dust of either of these pads damage the finish of the wheels?
What pad is more bang for the buck, Carbotech or Hawks and where is a good place to buy them. Does the brake dust of either of these pads damage the finish of the wheels?
I like the Carbotech's. Other's that I know like the Carbotech's better as well. You might want to consider the XP8's for the front if you haven't purchased them yet. The XP8's in the front and the Panther+ for the rear is an awesome set up for a DE with street tires. That's what I run. Brian at PFYC.com carries the Carbotech's. I think he might carry the Hawk's as well.
Neither pad's dust will damage your finish. That's important to me as well. You won't have a problem driving them on the street either.
Since you're going to swap pads out for track use, I'd consider picking up a set of ceramic pads for the street. Virtually no dust and no noise. I keep my original Z06 pads in a box as a spare set that I take to the track with me. If I cook a set of pads, I can go back to the stock pads in a pinch.
Once again, I like the ATE fluid. I think it's more forgiving than Motul. I drive pretty agressively and haven't boiled my fluid yet. It's up to you. For racing or if you were super advanced, I'd go with something like Motul or Castrol, but for DE's and street use, the ATE works perfectly.
You might also want to consider the DRM ducts down the road as well as SS brake lines and caliper pistons. I don't have the caliper pistons, but I do have the DRM ducts and SS lines and it makes a nice difference.
What pad is more bang for the buck, Carbotech or Hawks and where is a good place to buy them. Does the brake dust of either of these pads damage the finish of the wheels?
Thanks Again
Bud
I used the XP8/Panther Plus pads F/R at Road Atlanta, and I had them cracked in one afternoon--not worn down, but heat cracked. That said, I did get up to 147 on the back straight before I observed my self-imposed speed limit, so I may have been too hard on them. I have run the Hawks on both the Camaro and the Z at Road Atlanta and at Barber and they have been nothing but good, although they do dust and squeak, at least in street driving (when you heat them up really well at the track, the squeak usually goes away fast). I get Hawks at a non-forum vendor, so I'll send you the info via PM.
I use ATE Super Blue/Amber fluid and though a lot of people use Motul, I believe that the ATE is a better all around fluid and more forgiving. I know several people that do DE's and use the ATE fluid and never have to touch their brakes all weekend. This is after being driven hard at high speed tracks too like Road America. It's not my idea of fun to have to bleed your brakes at the track. If I were racing, I'd step up to a race fluid, but ATE serves my purposes perfectly fine.
You will not have any problem whatsoever driving to the track with Carbotech Panther+. Neither will you have trouble with the Hawk HP+. I know plenty of people that do it. You just will run into noise issues and dusting. I personally don't think you need to go to an all out race pad anyway, if you're using street tires and if you're only doing a DE.
X
ATE is good fluid, and the dual color system makes fluid replacement/bleeding a snap. That said, Motul 600 RBF does have slightly higher dry and wet boiling points. I've used Motul in both of my cars and been very happy with it. The Castrol SRF DOT4 fluid, which costs a fortune, is supposed to be the best on the planet for high boiling points, but I do not think it is needed unless you are racing--overkill for DEs.
I used the XP8/Panther Plus pads F/R at Road Atlanta, and I had them cracked in one afternoon--not worn down, but heat cracked.
Did you call Carbotech? I'm sure that they'd like to hear about it. I've never heard of it happening.
Private Message Gary Bjerke aka gbjerke. He used to use Panther+ at Road America and he just replaced them with Hawk HP+ last fall because he had a gift certificate to use up from the tire rack. He will give you some good impressions of the differences between the pads. I don't think he has any other brake modifications either except that he's also running ATE brake fluid. I know that he just got back from instructor training at Road America for the BMWCCA and put a TON of track miles on his car.
AutoForums.com is the premier network of enthusiast-owned
enthusiast-operated automotive communities.
We operate more than 100 automotive forums where our users consult peers for shopping information and advice, and share
experiences and opinions as a community.
Linear Mode
