Z06Vette.com Z06Vette.com

Go Back   Z06Vette.com - Corvette Z06 Forum > Other Z06 Topics > Racing
Register Home Forums Gallery Active Topics Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Casino

       
Z06Vette.com is the premier Corvette Z06 forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads. Please Register - It's Free!


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-14-2006, 04:09 PM   #1 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: MD
Posts: 9
Z06 suspension upgrades and lowering advice* ??

I'm relatively new to Z06 performance...particularly their handling upgrades. I'm a seasoned 911 Carrera driver whom tracks his car and the new owner of a 2002 Z06 and think the stock suspension is a "little soft" and can be improved upon. I also want to lower the ride height by about .75" -to- 1.0" inch as I think the stock ride height is just "a little" too tall. I want a cost effective yet "tuned" great handling package (I'm interested in doing several road course events this spring and summer with the Z06 and see what she'll do ) ...what shoud I do ? Suggestions? Thanks

---Kevin

Last edited by Kevin D. : 02-14-2006 at 04:12 PM.
Kevin D. is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-14-2006, 09:04 PM   #2 (permalink)
Z06 Pilot
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Westerville, Ohio USA
Posts: 620
Send a message via ICQ to corvette dave
Kevin,
Search the forum for lowering advice. Most cars will lower about 3/4" to 1" by adjusting the stock bolts.
There is a T1 suspension available for the car. It will increase the ride harshness but is a nice addition for tracked cars.
Many of the T1 racers say that lowering the car reduces cornering grip then run the ride height close to stock.
__________________
2002 red/black Z06: Vortech SQ trim SC, 160 thermostat, Blackwing, ported throttle body, LS1Edit, lowered, power antenna, polished wheels.
533 rwhp 438 rwtq

Last edited by corvette dave : 02-15-2006 at 10:03 AM.
corvette dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2006, 09:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
Z06 Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: North East
Posts: 359
Kevin,

I had a nice conversation with John at Phoenix Performance about this very subject. When the smoke cleared, his suggestion was to either go with the complete T1 package or leave the suspension stock and get a track alignment.

His suggestion may have been biases due to my not wanting to ruin track days screwing around with suspension setups and alignments. My initial question had to do with replacing the stock sway bars with the T1's and doing nothing else.

A very recent thread in this forum addresses lowering the car. Almost all T1 guys leave the height alone or drop it a just a bit (15mm). Mine is a daily driver and I have scraped the rails (going real slow) at the factory ride height.
kmagvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 08:56 AM   #4 (permalink)
Z06 Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Raeford, NC
Posts: 350
If you don't plan on racing it, then just to the T1 bars, and put a decent alignment on it and corner weight adjustments. Only let the pros lower the car though...you can really screw these things up by doing that!!!!!!!!!!!

Talk to Joe and the rest of the Phoenix performance guys about suspensions and good set ups. They are awesome!!!

The full T1 kit is a good package, but if that's not in your budget, the T1 bars with the stock suspension works very, very well!!
__________________

Chris W. Ingle, Instructor: Chin/TracQuest, Car Guys...
2006, 05, and 03 Southeast Division T1 National Champ
2001 White Z06 SCCA T1 Racer #7
wtknght1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 11:54 AM   #5 (permalink)
Z06 Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: North East
Posts: 359
In my discussion with Joe, I may have conveyed an aversion to altering the alignment to a track setup thereby steering his suggestion to leave everything alone.

If I elected to go to the T1 bars would I gain any benefit over the stock bars if I stick with a streetish alignment? Also, would you suggest poly bushings for the T1 bars?

I am assuming I would want the alignment checked right after installation.
kmagvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 01:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
Z06 Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Raeford, NC
Posts: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmagvette
If I elected to go to the T1 bars would I gain any benefit over the stock bars if I stick with a streetish alignment? Also, would you suggest poly bushings for the T1 bars?

I am assuming I would want the alignment checked right after installation.
1. You would definitely gain quite a bit using the T1 bars...poly bushings or otherwise. I just used the bushings that came with the kit...and still are using them in fact.

2. Just changing the bars won't alter your alignment. Just set them to neutral (with you in the car!!!!!) and you'll see a big difference on the track.

3. The more agressive you go with your alignment, the more gains you will see on track. The amount you go will dictate how often you get on track. If you just do 1 event per year and street drive it the rest of the time, then just use the stock settings. If you do 4 or more events per year though, you'd actually do better putting some serious camber in there or else you'll wear out the outside part of the tire on track. There's a happy medium in there somewhere and you'll just have to experiment and see what feels best for you....and your budget.

I would think that around -1.5 in front and -.7 in the back would be a good start. Toe the front out just a touch and toe the back in just a little bit. It'll be a rocket.
wtknght1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 02:35 PM   #7 (permalink)
Z06 Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtknght1
3. The more agressive you go with your alignment, the more gains you will see on track. The amount you go will dictate how often you get on track. If you just do 1 event per year and street drive it the rest of the time, then just use the stock settings. If you do 4 or more events per year though, you'd actually do better putting some serious camber in there or else you'll wear out the outside part of the tire on track. There's a happy medium in there somewhere and you'll just have to experiment and see what feels best for you....and your budget.

I would think that around -1.5 in front and -.7 in the back would be a good start. Toe the front out just a touch and toe the back in just a little bit. It'll be a rocket.
I think this is good advice. I am a novice at track days, but I managed to get to 6 last year. I had the alignment done after event #2, when I knew I was going to be going quite a bit more. I'm using almost exactly what WtKnight lists, and it's working well for me. The car is a little more squirrley on the street, but it turns much better on the track.
--Yak
__________________
2002 Z06, electron blue
Yakisoba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 04:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: MD
Posts: 9
I really appreciate the advice! All very good and interesting suggestions...I'm definitely going to look into you guys suggestions...some T1 bars and a more aggressive track alignment looks to be the trick* (more negative camber & some tweaked toe)

...however, it's really dissapointing to hear that lowering the car actually ruins the handling on these cars ...i personally wanted the car to be a little lower (not a whole lot) to the tune of 3/4 of an inch to maaaybe a full inch (max) to reduce some of that wheel well gap and make the car have a much more agressive stance* ...so you guys are telling me there's basically no way to do this while improving the handling of the car ? Thanks.

---Kevin D.
Kevin D. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 04:38 PM   #9 (permalink)
Z06 Pilot
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 683
Kevin,

Please allow me to weigh in here. These guys are experts and they are giving you good advice. I do not have any idea what your driving skills are and how much you can push this car. However, for a lot of us, OK, me, lowering these cars 3/4 to 1 inch will not affect the way it performs on the track to a noticable degree. In fact, I liked the way mine handled better with it lowered. I lowered, had a moderate track/street alignment performed by a professional and I liked "the feel" better on the track. Again, these guys are the experts (not me). But, for a part time HPDE driver like me (2-3 a year) - I say lower it for the look (for the same reasons you quote). I can assure you that my car being lowered is not the reason that these T1 drivers will turn far better lap times than I will.

Enjoy the car and welcome to the site.
__________________

Corvette Z06 - SOLD
Porsche Killer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 05:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
Z06 Authority
 
Mark Olson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Truckee, CA
Posts: 1,181
One of problems with lowering it's a fine line between (good looking an to low) I have mine lower about what you are thinking, I will tell you that Shocks are your best investment, then bars (check rules), and a good aligment with some Neg added, (again not to much)

Now I do mainly Autocross, but the couple of times I did track my car, I was bottoming out on the bumpstops at track speeds with race tires... So I will agree that stock travel is a good idea for cars that are being tracked.
__________________

2001 Torch Red, SCCA Solo ll Specs.
02 Audi Allroads 2.7TT RS4spec. 03 Range Rover
86 K100RS Carmra Moto. 05 R1200GS been to Alaska
Mark Olson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 09:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
Z06 Addict
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: gainesville, ga
Posts: 273
Agree with Mark, tho I'd go with '04 Z06 shocks then do alignment followed by the T1 bars as far as suspension modifications go.
fcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 10:31 PM   #12 (permalink)
Z06 Pilot
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Milpitas, CA
Posts: 502
Send a message via MSN to meldog21
Kevin,
Here is a post from DJWorm that pretty much covers everything you're asking about. (I didn't save the link in the forum, I copied it to my computer)



Another DJ Worm set up/ modification doc.

You need to understand that the Chevy T1 package was engineered to upgrade a C5 for track use, not a Z06. It is essentially a "trunk kit" to make a C5 minimally track worthy. In addition it is used as a LIMITING specification by the SCCA (ie. "You can do THIS but NO more.") in a basically Showroom Stock class. It will however, improve a Z06's handling somewhat. There are good pieces in the T1 package and some lousy pieces. You should also know that the T1 springs and shocks are engineered to be used together and perform marginally or worse when used alone. The T1 Sachs shocks & T1 springs will actually increase the ride height of the car.
- IF you ARE going to turn the car into a T1 Spec racer...then the T1 package (limited as it is) is your only choice. AND you must use ALL of the T1 package as a package...you can't mix'n match with other aftermarket componants.
A further note here: It is probably MORE cost effective to buy a prepared t1 car from say Phoenix rather than convert yours to a T1 racer.
- IF you are NOT going to compete in T1 ...but rather enjoy track days, SCCA Solo I PDE, Time Trials & Hillclimbs or compete in non stock SCCA AutoX such as ASP & SM2 your options are better. Pick the best parts of the T1 package (namely the swaybars & end links and build a "better than" T1 Suspension.

You also need to understand what adjustable shocks offer and what coil overs offer and do not.

The advantage if double ajustable shocks are that they can independantly adjust Compression (Bump) and Rebound. For example, Penskes have 6 bump settings and 28 rebound settings. You initially set the rebound at mid range (position 14) and see how the car reacts. We needed more front grip and Turn In so we increased the front rebound to 21 and needed less in the rear to conteract a bounce on hard acceleration and braking so we decreased the rebound to 9 in the rear. Once set up the car handled the same in high speed track as it does in low speed AutoX transition and we have NEVER adjusted the rebound further, but we could if necessary. A dual use car daily driver and track car really benefits from adjustability especially in Bump. We use the softest settings (1 & 2) for AutoX, 3 for street, 4 for interstate and the stiffest, 5 & 6, for high speed track work. It is simple to set up and tune the car when changing from AutoX to street and back to track by just turning a knob. Additionally we can set up the car for wet conditions by using softer settings and use softer settings in the rear to increase rear traction. If we do oval work we can easily weight jack the car using the shock bump settings.

The Penskes at around $3000 new, seem expensive, but they add value to the car OR can be resold for 75-80% of the initial cost. I just sold a set for $2,500 so the cost over 4 years was about $47 per shock per year...pretty cheap. The Penskes look like a real bargin when you compare them to the new 4 way adjustable Moton's at $10,500 a set, of course they are the ultimate. Penskes are also rebuildable and revalvable and thus hold their value.

The Penskes are also upgradable to coilovers. I would not install coilovers unless the car is a dedicated racer or your are very serious in handling and high speed track.
The advantage of a coil over set up is that once individual corner weights have been determined individual corner spring rates can be selected and ride hieghts set INITIALLY. It gives you the best initial range of set up. I think it is a mistake to build a coilover set up on a non-adjustable shock however, in that you no longer have adjustability save for disassembling the set up to make a change. Not something you want to do at the track. You need a set up platform and need to corner weigh the car and then corner weight it or rely on someone elses recommendationms to properly use a coilover set up.

My recommendations for a NON T1 Spec suspension is as follows: NOTE: this can be done progressively if funds are limited in the general order listed (the first 7 items done initially then add the T1 sway bars and progress to stiffer springs or coilovers if necessary)
- Lower as far as possible using:
- Hardbar Titanium rear spring bolts
- Hardbar SS Front spring bolts with Delrin Bushings
- Competition alignment (mark street, AutoX & track settings)
- good & proper size set of race wheels & tires
- VB&P Poly Graphite Bushings
- Penske DA shocks
- T1 Sway bars
- Teflon Lined adjustable end links
- Baer "Tracker" Toe & steering rod end bushing (if necessary)
Options:
- Hardbar keyed Camber plates (locks in settings)
- VB&P Extreme Springs OR
- Coilover upgrade to Penskes (Hyperco springs and Hydraulic spring perches)
- Custom billet spindel/hub uprights
- Custom A-Arms

Brake upgrades for track: (likewise all the basic options first)
- Cryo'd & slotted rotors
- Race Brake Fluid (Motul 600, AP600, Wilwood EXP)
- Initially Bleed ABS with Tech II Analyser
- Race pads
- Goodridge SS lines with -AN connectors
- Speedbleeders
- DR SS caliper Pistons
- DR Cooling Duct Extension
- LG Spindel Ducts
- Pegasus or Mallett Bleed Catch Bottle
Options:
- MPC H2O injection/mister
- VB&P F1 vented Titanium tipped caliper pistons & caliper hone
- Extrude Hone rotor interior vanes
- Meta-Lax stress relieved rotors
- Heat barrier protective coating on selected surfaces
- Heat release coating on selected surfaces
- Anodize selected surfaces
- OR Big brake kit (Alcon, AP, StopTech)

Wheel & Tire selection:
C5 Z06;
305/30x18 on 10.5x18 with +0.25" offset FRONT
315/35x17 on 11x17 wiith +0.25" offset REAR (T1)

T1 Wheel/Tire optiion (other than stock sizes)
315/35x17 on 10x17 FRONT-> Limits tire effectivness
315/35x17 on 11x17 REAR

C6 Z06:
305/30x18 on 10.5x18 with +0.25" offset FRONT
335/30/18 on 12x18 with +0.25" offset REAR
__________________
Williams GT Engineering @ www.WilliamsGTEng.us
F1 Technology, Parts and Preparation for Competition Corvettes





I've had my '02 Z06 for about 6 months and have taken it to the track(Thunderhill) once so far. It was lowered approximately 1 inch when I bought it. The car is my daily driver but I plan to take it to the track 2-4 times per year. I am severly budget limited so my modifications were done on the cheap. With DJWorm's info as a base, plus talking to a lot of people and searching for deals, here is what I ended up with.

About $610, Hotchkiss sway bars, comes with teflon endlinks.
From forum vendor LAPD

About $350, DRM brake ducts with Phoenix spindle mounts.
From forum vendor PFYC and Phoenix, the
customer service from PFYC kind of sucked.

$200, '06 Z06 shocks.
From forum vendor Fred Beans.

About $230, New slotted rotors. Found from online ebay search.
Nothing special, but I wanted zinc plated to keep
rust away.

About $75, Slightly used Carbotech brake pads.
From forum member.

About $100, Braided steel brake lines. Add another $100+ for
Motul RBF600 fluid.

$700, New F1 Goodyear tires. From forum member. I
wanted PS2's, but I couldn't pass up this price.

$160, Lifetime alignment from Firestone. My local store
has done the alignment twice so far to my specs,
which are:
Front Camber -1.1
Castor L 7.0, R 7.3, with me seated in vehicle.
Toe +.08 total(.04 +.04)
Rear Camber -.9
Toe 0.0 (I might need to go a little neg next time)


My car had 18,000 miles on the original tires and I needed new ones right away. So for about $2,500 I got suspension, brakes, and tires, your dollars and mileage may vary. The car seems to handle and brake better, but still feels fine for commuting. It is a little darty on rough freeway surfaces but it's worth it to me. Overall I'm pretty happy with how everything's working. I just need to drive a little on some windy roads so I can get the rear sway bar adjusted for the right amount of grip at the next track day.

Good luck on whatever upgrade path you choose.

Dog

Oops, I forgot to add $500 for used hardbar and Simpson belts. From a forum member. That brings me up to $3,000.

Last edited by meldog21 : 02-15-2006 at 10:41 PM.
meldog21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2006, 10:36 PM   #13 (permalink)
Z06 Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: North East
Posts: 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtknght1

3. The more agressive you go with your alignment, the more gains you will see on track. The amount you go will dictate how often you get on track. If you just do 1 event per year and street drive it the rest of the time, then just use the stock settings. If you do 4 or more events per year though, you'd actually do better putting some serious camber in there or else you'll wear out the outside part of the tire on track. There's a happy medium in there somewhere and you'll just have to experiment and see what feels best for you....and your budget.
...and "wear out the outside part of the tire" I did. In the off season I purchased the T1 wheel/tire set up - I think most of you guys are running 315x17 on all 4 corners. With wider tires and a stock alignment, will I see even greater tire wear on the ouside tread?

Also, can I remount the tires so the best part of the tread is on the outside? I have a bunch of Goodyear GSCS and one set of Hoosier AS304s. I typically run Watkins Glen.
kmagvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2006, 07:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
Z06 Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Raeford, NC
Posts: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmagvette
...and "wear out the outside part of the tire" I did. In the off season I purchased the T1 wheel/tire set up - I think most of you guys are running 315x17 on all 4 corners. With wider tires and a stock alignment, will I see even greater tire wear on the ouside tread?

Also, can I remount the tires so the best part of the tread is on the outside? I have a bunch of Goodyear GSCS and one set of Hoosier AS304s. I typically run Watkins Glen.
I figured you would with a stock alignment. Quite a few of the folks I run with use 315s all around, but I like the overall feel of 275s up front. The 315s have a better turn in feel, but when you look at the lap times, they are/were identical to the 275s on most of the tracks. On the fast tracks (VIR, Daytona, etc), the 275s are faster because of less rolling and air resistance. Plus, with the 315s up front, the car tends to get too loose toward the end of the race and you can't put the power down when you really need it.

As far as switching the tires around... Be careful about this. Most of these racing tires are designed with an inside and outside edge. The spring rates of the inside and outside walls can be different. If you swap them around, you may notice different handling than you expect. Personally, I'd just put a decent alignment on there to avoid wearing out the edges and keep buying used tires. With a good alignment, they'll last quite a while.

Only let the pros do modifications to your ride height though. I'm telling you, that can really screw your car up. After Phoenix set mine to the proper height, it was soooooo much nicer to drive...and very, very forgiving. The stopwatch also showed a 2 second per lap gain which was the most important thing. And by the way, as far as looks go, it may 'look better' lowered, but you'll most likely 'look better' in the rear view mirror of somebody else's car that's been properly set up. It's performance that counts.

All those adjustable shocks and such are probably quicker if you have tons and tons of testing time available to get them exactly right. But, for those on a budget, you can have a really nice 'hybrid' car that handles well on both the street and track with just adding the T1 bars and a decent alignment. If you plan to go further (T1 racing for instance), then put the whole kit on there and let the pros do the settings and alignment. You'll save yourself tons of time, heartache, and money. Spend the money you save on seat time - that will get you more than anything else.

Last edited by wtknght1 : 02-16-2006 at 07:40 AM.
wtknght1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2006, 08:03 AM   #15 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 16
z06 autocross

I agree that lowering the ride height will reduce cornering grip, it is only a cosmetic improvement. Also, the T1 kit is designed for smooth surfaces only, and is not conducive to street driving. If you add the t1 swaybars to the stock springs wich are soft in comparison to the t1 springs you can actually pick up the inside rear tire in a hard corner. I would start off by buying a set of race compound tires and puting them on forged wheels, and changing the camber a bit. That way you have a car that is entirely streetable, and you can change your wheels for a race. If you are only going to track the car, I would also add the t1 kit. Also, I would advise having the cars corner weights checked (the weight on each wheel )with you in it. I do suspension work on super late modle racers, and can say that corner weight is very important.
Street Pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply


  Z06Vette.com - Corvette Z06 Forum > Other Z06 Topics > Racing



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Z51 Coupe - Suspension upgrades ? Package C6 Z06 - Grandstand 0 03-23-2006 06:52 PM
EFI-1 Suspension Upgrades! EFI-1 C5 Z06 - Pit Road 19 09-27-2004 08:25 AM
Need Advice On Performace Upgrades SPRFAST C5 Z06 - Pit Road 4 12-04-2003 12:07 PM
suspension upgrades jim911 Racing 2 02-23-2002 11:31 PM
Suspension upgrades? itry2hide C5 Z06 - Pit Road 0 10-10-2001 11:46 PM

Links

» Log in
User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
» Wheel & Tire Center


» Search Used Cars
Search for used vehicles by ZIP, please enter Zipcode below:
Sponsors

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0 RC1

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:07 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.1.0
  • AutoForums.com
  • Truck
  • European
  • Import
  • Domestic
  • Manufacturer

AutoForums.com is the premier network of enthusiast-owned enthusiast-operated automotive communities.
We operate more than 100 automotive forums where our users consult peers for shopping information and advice, and share experiences and opinions as a community.

Visit AutoForums.com today.

For advertising information, please visit our AutoForums.com website and Contact Us, or send an email message to sales@autoforums.com.