Z06Vette.com - Corvette Z06 Forum

**blkZ06** · 03-24-2008, 06:12 PM

anyone run with a PCA group yet?

I just signed up for 2 events and read in the tech about the new guidelines regarding harness bar and belts. It looks like only 5-6pt belts are allowed, along with some other specifics regarding type of seats, harness bar, antisub belts, alignment, etc. I've got the BK setup with Simpson belts and am running my antisub's from the BK hardware. So it sounds like I am going to need to bolt the antisub to the floor, and pad my harness bar, and maybe even get raceseats, even though I have a 'pass-through' for the belts.

Any thoughts? Here's the new guidelines:

************************************************** **********************************

Equal Restraints: Both student and instructor shall have the same restraint system. All vehicles must be equipped with a properly installed lap and shoulder restraint system.

Harness Systems: If the participant chooses to install a 5 or 6 point driving harness ( four point systems are not safe and therefore not allowed) several changes to the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must include a antisubmarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner consistent the manufacturer’s instructions. The Harness system must be used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. All pieces of the restraint system must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.

This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and anti-submarine straps. The shoulder straps should be mounted at 90 degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from horizontal. Because the addition of the harness system means that the occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The use of one without the other may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Due to UV degradation and wear the harness webbing must be replaced every five years.

************************************************** **********************************

**DennyM** · 03-24-2008, 07:38 PM

Leslie ... quite a bit of discussion on this in the Autox & Roadracing forum on CF. Tom B (Au N Egl) is fairly up on the translation of the PCA rules ... and I believe they do NOT permit "pass around" harnesses OR stock seats with aftermarket grommets for pass thrus.
Best I got at this late hour ... g'nite, lady ...

No Doubt · 03-24-2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

I believe they do NOT permit "pass around" harnesses OR stock seats with aftermarket grommets for pass thrus.

That is correct.

"This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and anti-submarine straps."

The key words are "as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and anti-submarine straps." The stock seats are not so equipped because they do not have pass-throughs for the shoulder harnesses in the case of the Z06, nor the anti-submarine belt in either coupe or Z06.

In the event one has OEM seats modified to include these pass-throughs it could argued they are just that, a "modification", and whoever performed said modification was not the manufacturer of the seat itself.

Subdriver · 03-24-2008, 08:37 PM

Thanks for the info Leslie.

Glad I bought a full race seat and five point harness for my passenger seat on the rare occasion that I can instruct at a DE.

I actually have my car back in my garage right now all shiny and ready to go... and can't find the time to get to the track. How frustrating.

JasonI · 03-25-2008, 08:59 AM

Do you have a rollbar or a harness bar Leslie? A rollbar should be padded to keep from cracking your head on it. A harness bar wouldn't need padding because if you are hitting it, you have bigger problems.

**DennyM** · 03-25-2008, 10:28 AM

I reviewed the thread on CF.
Tom B says: "Not only does the PCAs do this but many many other clubs are sure to follow."

It may sound ridiculous, but if you still have your stock three-points ... you can probably use them!

(until you figure out what you need to do with the harness/seats.)
This from Dave Deerson, NASA NE/PDA Tech:
"The reason why it is "safe" to run the stock seat belts is simply legal responsibility. In a way it is safe for us,(NASA/PDA) to mandate a federally tested installation. GMs seats,belts and airbags were crash tested and comply with federal DOT regs,so if anything should happen in an incident the onus of responsibility is on them, the manufacturer for their product. However if you choose to install aftermarket safety equipment,the only consistent guidlines we have to judge the quality of each installation is to have the car owner follow NASA's nationally endorsed racing guidlines."
Let us know what you end up with ...

**RC45** · 03-25-2008, 12:48 PM

Could it be that the day of the "arrive and drive" event with your street car are almost numbered - and that before long only dedicated purpose built race cars will be allowed on track.

**blkZ06** · 03-25-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonI

Do you have a rollbar or a harness bar Leslie? A rollbar should be padded to keep from cracking your head on it. A harness bar wouldn't need padding because if you are hitting it, you have bigger problems.

BK harness bar. Sooo I am thinking I will go ahead and bolt down the antisub, making mine a 5 pt, and my seats are 'modified' to accomodate race belts. My first HPDE isn't until Apr at Mid OH with a PCA group, so I think I will show up at tech STOCK and ask about my setup.

Thanks for the info from CF Denny!!!

I think the biggest hurdle will be my seats not being full race seats. Sounds like I need to just go ahead and gut out my car

So much for 'street' cars at HPDE's huh?

**blkZ06** · 03-25-2008, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subdriver

Thanks for the info Leslie.

Glad I bought a full race seat and five point harness for my passenger seat on the rare occasion that I can instruct at a DE.

I actually have my car back in my garage right now all shiny and ready to go... and can't find the time to get to the track. How frustrating.

claim you need mental relief and the track is the only place to find it

that's EXCELLENT you got your car back together!!!

S-TEE · 03-25-2008, 07:56 PM

Les,

You think if I order the dog car seat, that was on an ad at the bottom of the page, that it would work for me??

Man, stuff like this sure would make for a safer driver's environment, but gets kinda daunting for a once-in-a-while-er, like me...

Subdriver · 03-25-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blkZ06

claim you need mental relief and the track is the only place to find it

That might work... but the guy I need to complain to is me... and I'm pretty sure I'd know I was lying.

**DennyM** · 03-26-2008, 06:07 AM

You can still go to the track with an intact 3-point and run non-competitive events.
The issue that PCA is addressing is the "System" components of a harness ...
Their position addresses seat configuration and belt mounts.

There's a whole 'nother layer of discussion about harnesses with harness bars vs. roll bars ... and then what constitutes an acceptable roll bar ... that comes into play when one goes competitive.

**panzer** · 03-26-2008, 11:01 AM

Would the C5 Super Sport style seat with the seat belt pass through hole qualify as OEM and therefore acceptable?

JasonI · 03-26-2008, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panzer

Would the C5 Super Sport style seat with the seat belt pass through hole qualify as OEM and therefore acceptable?

There is no hole in the bottom cushion for the anit-sub belt.

**DennyM** · 03-26-2008, 02:02 PM

Basically, SCCA PDX and NASA HPDE allow factory seat belts, with or without roll bars.
However, when one uses a harness, the competition rules apply.
I couldn't find anything that specifically addresses belt pass-thrus.

SCCA Performance Driving Experience (HPDE)
Time Trials level 1 (PDX)
10.8. REQUIRED DRIVER SAFETY EQUIPMENT
... Please note that for PDX (Level 1) events, the following guidelines apply for restraint systems - All cars that are required to install roll bars must comply with Section 12 of the TTR. Cars that choose to install a roll bar may use stock restraint systems, provided that the roll bar does not interfere
with the function of the system in any way. For these cars, there is no age limit on harnesses so long as the harnesses are in visibly and physically good condition (i.e. no fraying, damage, or excessive discoloration).
Cars that do not incorporate roll bars or cages may use the stock restraint system in its entirety, or use a restraint system that complies with TTR [time trial regs] Section 12.
SECTION 12. – DRIVER RESTRAINT REQUIREMENTS
All drivers in PDX (Level 1) events may utilize a restraint harness meeting the specifications of section 12.1 in lieu of the factory/OEM restraints.
12.1.
1. A four point restraint system, for use in enclosed automobiles only, may be employed where the driver is seated in an upright position. Only 4 point restraints that incorporate a manufacturer designed method for prevention of submarining may be used. Five, six or seven-point systems are highly recommended in all cars including automobiles where the driver is seated in an upright position.
4. The single anti submarine strap of a five point system shall be attached to the floor structure and have a metal to metal connection with the single release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness.
5. The double leg straps of the six point or seven-point system may be attached to the floor as above for the five point system or be attached
to the seat belt so that the driver sits on them, passing them up between his or her legs and attaching either to the single release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness or attaching to the shoulder harness straps. It is also permissible for the leg straps to be secured at a point common to the seat belt attachment to the structure, passing under the driver and up between his or her legs to the seat belt release or shoulder harness straps. All straps shall be free to run through intermediate loops or clamps/buckles.

NASA HPDE rules:
11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses
"The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder
restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum
requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger.
Note: passenger equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driver’s side.
*Aftermarket DOT-certified belt sets, installed to the manufacturer’s specifications may be allowed. Proof of DOT certification and proper installation is the driver’s responsibility.
15.5 Driver restraint system
1. All vehicles must have a five (5), six (6), or seven (7) point seat belt system.
2. A five (5) point system consists of: a three (3) inch lap belt, two shoulder belts that are either two (2) or three (3) inches wide, and a two (2) inch anti-submarine strap.
3. A six (6) point system is recommended for cars where the driver is seated in an upright (to thirty (30) degrees) or a semi-reclining position. It consists of two (2) anti-submarine belts in addition to lap and shoulder belts. Note: Current FIA Approved belt sets with two (2) inch lap belts are acceptable with the six (6) point system.