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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Good news and bad news. First a brief explanation (no excuses-just the facts).

R&D Dyno has been an excellent dyno to get consistant numbers on our test vehicles for over 2 years now. Steve Cole personally uses this dyno facility because of this factor.

A few weeks ago, Darren regreased the dyno bearings and put everything back together. Then it happened.

His stock Honda, which has always dynoed at 109 RWHP suddenly lost 7 RWHP down to 102. No matter what Darren did, he could not retrieve the kind of stock numbers he could lay down prior to his DynoJet maintainence.

Many others noticed fairly dramatic differences when dynoing. Some who had added mods that normally added 20 or so HP were seeing only 8-10 RWHP.

Enough said, but the numbers recorded for this 2002 are way low in my opinion, even lower than the stock 2001.

Bottom line: The dyno numbers can only be used as a comparison of stock to another mod, or mod to mod differences, but the Max Power and Torque are off by as much as 5% according to Darren. At 5800 rpm the SideWinder really Kicks Ass over stock: 350.8 .vs 335.5 or a gain of 15.3 RWHP (18 flywheel).
The stock torque drop at that rpm is 298.6 lbs. ft. .vs 312.3 or 13.7 lbs. ft. difference

Monday we will dyno at another facility, just to verify these numbers.

HERE'S THE GOOD NEWS: THE SIDEWINDER ROCKS!

We started with the SideWinder, hood closed with the fans directed at the Z06 airvents:

Best pull: 350.9 RWHP/344.1 RWT

Installed the stock box and allowed relearn, then best pull:
Stock with hood down: 337.6 RWHP/333.6 RWT

Reinstalled the SideWinder with relearn time, Best Pull:
351.4 RWHP/344.2 RWT. At 5300 RPM, the SideWinder outpulls stock by 15.8 RWHP and 15.6 RWT (+18.6 HP & 18.35 Torque)

Correction factors 1.00-1.01

SideWinder made +13.8 RWHP Peak and +10.6 lbs. ft. Peak torque over stock.
(+ 16.2 Flywheel HP and 12.5 lbs ft. torque)

If GM's BHP numbers are to be believed, then we now have 421.2 BHP and 412.5 lbs. ft. torque just by adding the 16.2 HP/12.5 torque to GM's 2002 numbers.

If you use the 351.4/344.2 numbers that works out to 413.4 RWHP/405 torque for the SideWinder. (.85 correction factor)

I will post all dynos here next week, after the rest of the dynos are complete.

http://www.corvettec5.com/cgi-bin/S..._sidewinder.html?L+scstore+ogfi6245+998794508


Jim Hall

R&D Dyno: 310-516-1003 (Darren):grin: :eek: ;) :(
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
New Dyno

We did not want to start with our other dyno facility, even though with Windows software, it seems to have inflatted numbers when comparing the same vehicle.

The important thing here is the car feels much faster than our 2000, even though the 2000 numbers match and exceed the 2002 stock numbers. This gets back to the dyno problem at R&D. The 2000 was dynoed during dyno day, before the maintainence. It also has our TRIC/MAG LS1 to Z06 package.

$50.00 off sale ends Friday:
http://www.corvettec5.com/cgi-bin/S..._sidewinder.html?L+scstore+ogfi6245+998794508


Jim Hall
 

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Jim, thanks for the info. I predicted on the other Forum that a stock '02 Z06 would do 340 rwhp on an accurate dyno (whatever that is).:( It would be nice to know where these cars really are in rwhp, but I'm not sure we'll ever know. Breathless' dyno always seems high as do every dyno I've ever seen from Texas. The dyno you used last year seemed high for stock #s also. Around here, there are 2 dyno jets that both measured most stock '01s at 325 to 330 rwhp. Are they accurate or are the Texas and Calif. dynos that were in the 340s for stock '01s the accurate ones? We'll probably never know. :(
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
That's why it is important to dyno ever mod on the same dyno. We aren't in this business for an ego trip, but the REAL changes with mods. Notice we do not sell anything that "Claims HP" but doesn't deliver. That would include our stuff if it didn't make the numbers.

I was pleasantly surprised by the BIG difference the SideWinder makes over stock. I had guessed 10 RWHP, but we got 13 to 16 RWHP depending at which RPM you look at the delta.

I'm at home, but I will post all the dyno sheets Monday.

We expect a few more HP from the TRIC and about even from the Vortex, but it will be fair, with relearn time on both systems, and new shrouds on both.

Even if the Vortex and TRIC make the same static numbers as the SideWinder on the dyno, they would walk away from the SideWinder in the real world, due to the cold ram air effect.

We have seen as much as 40 degrees difference at the IAT sensor during AutoTap/Dyno sessions between stock pulls and the TRIC. That 40 degree difference is a power LOSS for the stock air induction of 4% real power.

Check out this link: Start with 80 degrees, 29.92 baro, 65 dewpoint, and 0 altitude. Calculate. 100 % correction .Now add 10 degrees at a time to the 80 until you reach 120. You should see the correction factor increase by about 4%. The dyno automatically adjusts for barometric pressure, and ambient temperature on most dynos, with the wet bulb set manually at the beginning of each pull.

http://www.corvettec5.com/cgi-bin/S...e/calc_hp_dp.htm?L+scstore+fzgv0116+998810291


The 2002 does not like heat. All of our runs decreased when the water temp got over 205 degrees. I think 180 would have brought a few more ponies to the picture.

Thermostat changes should be in order here.:guiness:
 

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Jim: You might want to try Powertrain Dynamics for the new dyno. It is right next to the "other" HB shop, has a 248C in the floor (so easier vehicle loading), has all of the latest software, and seems to be pretty conservative based on my pulls. Steve Rideout is also a nice guy.

I have always liked Darren and R & D, but that shop is very far for my location.

Let me know what you decide.

As for time travel, I am not sure how that happened!

Have a good one, and please send the Halltech Condo when you get a chance. Thanks!
 

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Jim, I am VERY interested in your product if it will significantly boost peak power in a fast moving (outside) air stream, iaw a "ram air" effect. But can this be verified during a dyno test?

Perhaps there is some way to rig up an industrial blower unit,
with very high fan air flow rate, surrounded by ducting that encapsulates the air directed to the engine intake. Since the front of the Z06 has dual air inlets small enough in size to be compatible with most household clothes dryers vent ducts, (and such ducting is generally available inexpensively at any Hardware store) it should be relatively easy to set up the "forced air" test equipment in the dyno shop. Then just do a stock vs. Halltech Z06 dyno test to measure the difference at the rear wheels.

I'd buy a Halltech unit in a heartbeat if you could demonstrate the real world benefit of the product in this manner like you have done already on your 2002 Z06. Please just show us the "real world" benefits using the dynojet measurement method.

BTW, I agree with you 100% regarding the adverse affect of the "heat" factor. These cars do operate (intentionally by GM) way too hot in moving air. A low temp stat would be a very effective and cheap investment in better engine performance. I plan to install a 160F (initial open) in my 2002. Do you know where I can find one for the LS6 . . . not the 170F (although even that would help), but a 160F unit.

I have used 160F stats before (available from Hypertech). They are indeed quite effective in lowering engine operating temps in my stock '96 LT4 and ZR-1. In both cases I am convinced merely lowering the coolant temp (and indirectly the oil), in a moving air stream through the radiator via natural convection will definitely help to produce more power.

This too is hard to demonstrate on a "static" dyno test, because of insufficient air flow through the radiator in free standing air. Forcing the radiator cooling fans to run cannot really help unless the coolant temp is regulated (by the stat) to a much lower temp setpoint. And besides that, those fans, if forced to operate all the time, also tend to rob the engine of HP and they are not as efficient in creating enough airflow to offset the heat build up the engine at high rpms.

I also agree with your prediction for the IAT sensor temperature reduction as well and that's where your product comes in to play.

What's this about a $50 off sale? Did I missed something? :(:eek:

I haven't purchased one yet because my '02 is still on order but I should have it in another month or so. Obviously, I don't have a need for a Halltech system YET. ;)

FWIW, have you considered that the lower #s on the R&D dyno may be attributed to the lower octane (91) gas now at all gas station pumps in CA, effective August 1st? Even the better brands like Chevron Supreme are down in octane. I have seen in various places that GM "recommends" 93 octane for the high compression Z06 engine.
 

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The "ram air" affect of a moving car is very little, if any. If you want something more like a real ram air setup go look at the MTI intake kit.
 

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As far as just changing your thermostat to a 172 or even 160, please remember:

If you do not change the fan temp turn on setting via the pcm or external source, your coolant temps will not change much, if at all, UNLESS you are highway driving. Street traffic, crusing around town and track runs, will cause your temps to increase well over 200 as they are now. Now, if you start the car up on a 20 degree day and run a half a mile to the local 7-11, chaces are the car may not even warm up sufficiently at all. For most driving situations, temps will be over 200, even with a fan controller and tstat.

If you change to a 160 or even 172, and you live in weather where winter brings you freezing days, short trips like the one mentioned above or even a mile or two more, won't bring the car up to sufficient warm up standards. Some guys will change their tstats with the seasons.

Stock, my 2000 ran at 237 at the track on a 90 degree day where runs are made about every ten minutes and at longest 20 minutes, due to the attaendance. After a 172 tstat and an xternal fan controller, I run not more than 207, even when making several back to back runs. I now contorl my fan temp turn on via the pcm with a TTS Powerloader II.

Dynoing at a 180 water temp is different than real world driving. Low coolant temps does give the product it's best chance at the most power.

On the subject of ram air effect, same test driver not affiliated with any company, running back to back with the car, say 3 runs a piece, with each product, would probably answer that question better than having to hook up a blower of that spped in a dyno shop. in fact, not telling the driver which product he/she was using would also avert any bias. Since Jim has a Vortex and his products, maybe he can arrange that out there.

This may not apply to jim's runs above, but, when dynoing, it is common to use a fan, blowing on the front of the car both for intake effect and cooling down after runs. The fan though, is not blowing at 100 mph.

RG
 

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To RG in Dallas: As you point out, I have found the low temp stat (160F initial open) to be VERY effective on "the highway" which is
where I prefer to drive my car most of the time. For the city street and stop and go traffic (even on the freeway) I installed a manual override fan activation switch so that I can take over manual control of the cooling fans whenever I wish. It allows me to run them both slow or both fast by simply enerizing the appropriate fan control relays independently of the PCM.

As a backup method I also reprogrammed the PCM's fan control operating setppoints, but not to the point where they always operate. This is unnecessary in a moderate climate at normal highway speeds (SF Bay Area). The 160F thermostat does an admirable job of keeping the engine coolant and indirectly the oil temps lower by virtue of moving air and natural convection cooling of the radiator.

I agree the typical "forced air" cooling methods employed by most dyno shops is crude and barely adequate. That is why I made the suggestion I did to Jim at Halltech. It would be very interesting to "measure" the effectiveness of his product while test rwhp on a dyno but the external air flow system must be enhanced as suggested to perform a meaningful evaluation.
 

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Another thought:

Since the Sidewinder appears to take more air from one side of the cars screens openings, I wonder if the Blackwing unit Jim talked about possibly testing in another thread, would do better or worse or the same, since it is located in the middle of the engine compartment?



RG
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Mako said:
Jim: You might want to try Powertrain Dynamics for the new dyno. It is right next to the "other" HB shop, has a 248C in the floor (so easier vehicle loading), has all of the latest software, and seems to be pretty conservative based on my pulls. Steve Rideout is also a nice guy.

I have always liked Darren and R & D, but that shop is very far for my location.

Let me know what you decide.

As for time travel, I am not sure how that happened!

Have a good one, and please send the Halltech Condo when you get a chance. Thanks!

That's exactly what we plan. The SHO Shop is right next door if we wanted big numbers, but we are more interested in delta's between one component and another. Darren at R&D is also very interested in the numbers, so that he can illustrate to DynoJet the problem. They are due out on a service call next week.

I had Darren graph a dyno with our 2000 and the 2002 together, using the last dyno day numbers on our 2000. The 2000 made more horsepower and torque than the 2002, throughout the power range all the way to 5600 rpm. IF YOU BELIEVE THIS THEN HIS DYNO IS FINE.

It will be interesting to see just how much it is off.

Call Monday for the condo. I'm doing this from home and my old brain doesn't remember things very well. It will be nice to here from you.

Can't wait to see the 427 setup!

Jim
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
RG in Dallas said:
As far as just changing your thermostat to a 172 or even 160, please remember:

If you do not change the fan temp turn on setting via the pcm or external source, your coolant temps will not change much, if at all, UNLESS you are highway driving. Street traffic, crusing around town and track runs, will cause your temps to increase well over 200 as they are now. Now, if you start the car up on a 20 degree day and run a half a mile to the local 7-11, chaces are the car may not even warm up sufficiently at all. For most driving situations, temps will be over 200, even with a fan controller and tstat.

If you change to a 160 or even 172, and you live in weather where winter brings you freezing days, short trips like the one mentioned above or even a mile or two more, won't bring the car up to sufficient warm up standards. Some guys will change their tstats with the seasons.

Stock, my 2000 ran at 237 at the track on a 90 degree day where runs are made about every ten minutes and at longest 20 minutes, due to the attaendance. After a 172 tstat and an xternal fan controller, I run not more than 207, even when making several back to back runs. I now contorl my fan temp turn on via the pcm with a TTS Powerloader II.

Dynoing at a 180 water temp is different than real world driving. Low coolant temps does give the product it's best chance at the most power.

On the subject of ram air effect, same test driver not affiliated with any company, running back to back with the car, say 3 runs a piece, with each product, would probably answer that question better than having to hook up a blower of that spped in a dyno shop. in fact, not telling the driver which product he/she was using would also avert any bias. Since Jim has a Vortex and his products, maybe he can arrange that out there.

This may not apply to jim's runs above, but, when dynoing, it is common to use a fan, blowing on the front of the car both for intake effect and cooling down after runs. The fan though, is not blowing at 100 mph.

RG
You are correct, but the 02 programming is not available to change the fans. We run the Hypertech on our 2000 for the exact reasons you state. We use the rev limiter and the fan 1 and 2 settings at 180.

Our water temps never exceed 198, even around town, but in Huntington Beach, the temps at the beach never get above 76.

As far as ram effect, there is none that could be measured.

The radiator cavity area is open to the radiator and has many other outlets (i.e. it is not sealed-obviously). TRUE RAM AIR, is only present when the high pressure area (Chin spoiler area or bumper on the C5) is directed into a "sealed" airbox, which does not allow airflow to go anywhere else but the intake manifold. Even the Halltech, with it's chin spoiler positioning, does not qualify as a TRUE RAM AIR System. Any manufacture that claims RAM AIR is is full of hot air.

We are not embarrassed to say this, since our TRIC has the record for MPH in the 1/4 mile. The bolt on Z06 turnned 11.99 @ 117.66 backed by 12.01 at 118.6 proves my point.


Sport Rider magazine did experiments with the TRUE RAM AIR systems on the new Susukis, and Kawasakis and actually measured the pressure at the inlet. There was NO pressure until the bikes reached 100 mph. The total pressure available at the end of the 1/4 mile was a huge .3 psi, worth about 3 to 4 HP on these bikes.

Remember, there were no outlets for the airflow to go.

As far as our dyno testing is concerned, its our testing, paid for by us. Independent dynos have been done all over the country by many folks, drawing their own conclusions. There would be built in bias, but trust is something I think Halltech has earned over the years.

We don't set up or touch the dyno we use, and going to different facilities is the best we can do.


Jim
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The reason the intake is off to one side is to take advantage of the drivers side cold air vent. There is not one shread of ram air with the SideWinder or BatWing. Even at 200 mph.

The TRIC and Vortex are not ram air systems either. They get their benefit from the volume of cooler air available at speed.

This is worth at least 3 to 4% more power than the SideWinder or BatWing dynamically (on the road).

Testing ram air would have to be done in a Wind Tunnel with a dyno.

Just saw your post. Steve Cole developed the progam for the 01, and we would be interested in a program to change only the CAGS/Rev limiter/fans if it were available.

Jim
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The BatWing test will take place also, but we don't have one in stock. I guess I could call Kathy at Donaldson to get one to test.

Donaldson filters are fine filters. We distribute them as a Master Distributor. Even SLP cannot get our LS900 filter that we named and created with Donaldson, that was used on our original TRIC AL-3.5 system.

The reason we switched filter companies was strickly a business decision due to delivery issues.

Jim
 
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