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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK guys and gals, I need some input.

In SCCA T1 the car to have for the last 3-4 years has been the C5 Z06. The C6 Z51 is out, yet the only people racing it has been Ed Amonsen and John Heinricy. Ed has experienced numerous problems (one wreck and one blown motor), but JH has one the only race he entered, although he did not earn the pole for that race.

The Viper is kinda new this year, although it has been eligible for a few years. Dodge and one of the people who have built two Vipers, Scotty White (former Z06 racer and forum member), have succesfully lobbied the SCCA for some improvements in suspension. However the SCCA is also restricting the intake of the Viper by 40%.

My concern is that even with the 40% restriction, the V10 500 CI motor will still dominate our "little" 5.7 L motors. Here is a comparison:
C5/C6/SRT10
advertised HP: 405/400/500
race RWHP: 380/?/?
race weight: 3280/3280/3560
front tires: 315/315/305
rear tires: 315/315/335

I was at Beaverun thhis past week with Joe Aquilante and Co. His son AJ drove a brand new Viper in T1 trim. The car was very fast, running about 7-8 tenths under the new track rceord set two days later (by Fred Baker in a GT3), and 1.2 seconds under the current track record set by AJ.

The issue (to me) is that the Vipers are going to just dominate the class. Making the matter worse is that they are sooo expensive to build (around $100,000). Z06s were not cheap when they came out, but they were still less than the current King of the Hill at the time (old Vipers).

I'd love to here you thoughts. Can I afford a Viper? Of course! But I really don't want to incur that cost for next year. From an outsiders perspective, does it seem that the Viper is either an overdog, and underdog, or right where it should be?
 

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Are you saying the current Z can't hang with a Viper that has a 40% intake restriction?

If that's the case, I wouldn't worry too much cuz next year it will be a whole new ball game with new Z in the picture!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I am not sure that the C6 Z06 will be eligible, but I could be wrong. If it does get in, I think it too should be restricted. I think that C6 Z06 and the SRT10 are much more similar to each other than the SRT10 is to the C5 Z06 or C6 Z51.

The 40% restriction may not be enough, beleive it or not. I admit that 40% sounds like alot of resitriction, but I understand it does not choke the motor down nearly as much as you would think. I guess we will have to wait and see.
 

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David Pintaric said:
I am not sure that the C6 Z06 will be eligible, but I could be wrong. If it does get in, I think it too should be restricted. I think that C6 Z06 and the SRT10 are much more similar to each other than the SRT10 is to the C5 Z06 or C6 Z51.

The 40% restriction may not be enough, beleive it or not. I admit that 40% sounds like alot of resitriction, but I understand it does not choke the motor down nearly as much as you would think. I guess we will have to wait and see.

I know what your saying, how big is the stock intake on the Viper? Clearly if its some ridiculous 120mm or something, and 40% reduction on that is still like 72mm. That probably wouldnt even come close to actually creating choke conditions at high rpms. But it really comes down to how big the intake is that they reducing from.

Drew
 

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David, a concern is that I understand Whites 2 cars are "Factory" cars and tires are "factory". They will get the best of everything,parts, engineering ,tech and trick stuff. Even rich boys can't run with factory rides, and that would include you even in a Viper. Buck
 

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The death knell of all grass-roots' motorsports series over the decades has been the advent of factory rides and the cubic dollars they spend when they want to win--the original Trans Am series comes to mind, among others. If these are "factory" cars, T-1 is in trouble.

Frankly, the factory-made Viper Comp Coupe is an SWC-GT car, and allowing something similar to run in T-1 sends this to an entirely different level of speed and cost. Just ask Lou G. how much it costs to run a year in the SWC series versus a year in T-1 and you'll see what I mean.

Frankly, if I were SCCA, I'd ban the Viper and the C6 Z06 from T-1. If you want to run those big dogs, do it in SWC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The SRT10 is NOT the Viper Competition Coupe, two different cars, completely.

T1 has quasi-factory cars (ie John Heinricy), so that is not the issue. My concern is that even with the 40% restrictor plate the Viper is going to walk all over the C5 and C6s.
 

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David Pintaric said:
The SRT10 is NOT the Viper Competition Coupe, two different cars, completely.
The other poster suggested at least one of the Vipers will be a "factory" car. If so, isn't it logical that lots of the parts from the Comp Coupe will find their way into this series? Heck, the Comp Coupe's motor is stock--its all susp, bodywork, etc., that makes it different.
 

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I would think SCCA is going to do what it takes to insure something approaching parity. This is a class that is pretty well populated and has an enthusiastic following...SCCA has killed so many other classes that once were strong, they can't allow any one car to dominate T1. They'll actively manage the competitive advantage of the newer cars, until that point where the C6 Z06 and new Viper are common enough to fill grids by themselves, IMHO
 

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vettefan10 said:
I know what your saying, how big is the stock intake on the Viper? Clearly if its some ridiculous 120mm or something, and 40% reduction on that is still like 72mm. That probably wouldnt even come close to actually creating choke conditions at high rpms. But it really comes down to how big the intake is that they reducing from.

Drew
Actually, 40% less area than 120mm diameter is 93mm. to calculate this, square the radius, take 60% of it (that is what is left after reducing it by 40%), then take the square root to get the new radius...

sqrt[(60mm * 60mm) * 60%] = 46.5mm radius

So, 93mm diameter
 

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FWIW, I have run against many vipers at DE events at road atlanta and VIR, and I am almost always faster than them in a stock 01 z06. The viper is a heavy car, with more power.

They pull away a bit on the straight, but lose a lot of ground in braking. The viper is probably also much more difficult to handle (this may not be as much as an issue with amatueur/pro drivers)

I would bet a restricted SRT10 would be pretty even with a T1 z06.

EDIT: I was referring mainly to the GTS, not the SRT10. I have only run with one srt10, but passed him too :yeadog:
 

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timz06 said:
FWIW, I have run against many vipers at DE events at road atlanta and VIR, and I am almost always faster than them in a stock 01 z06. The viper is a heavy car, with more power.

They pull away a bit on the straight, but lose a lot of ground in braking. The viper is probably also much more difficult to handle (this may not be as much as an issue with amatueur/pro drivers)

I would bet a restricted SRT10 would be pretty even with a T1 z06.

EDIT: I was referring mainly to the GTS, not the SRT10. I have only run with one srt10, but passed him too :yeadog:
I agree with Tim. The Viper is great in a straight line and on skid pads but in reality does not do well on road courses since, becuase of its weight, it does not do well transitioning through turns. The more turns, the worse the Viper will perform, relative to a Z06 all other factors being equal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Man,

I hope you are right about this. Although the SRT10 now has a "T1" suspension package which I think will effectively improve the car's handling and transition abilities.
 

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David,

I think the salient point that will determine your decision will be the answer to the question "How is the SCCA going to treat the C6 Z06?"

You may be spending money for next year one way or another.

Will they allow the C6 Z06 in?
With a restrictor also?
Will the 427 be included as an upgrade on the C6 and C5 Z06 T1 Spec Line?
Will larger tires be included on the C6 Z06 (and the C5) Spec Line?

I think the answer to all those questions will be a YES.

Then you will have to consider upgrading the current car, or switching to a C6 Z06 or the Viper.

Currently one can only look to see what the SCCA has just done with the C6 Z06 in Solo II (August Fastrack). They have tenetively put it on an exclusion list for Super Stock next year (when it would be eligible) and will force it to compete in a higher class (ASP and SM2). The reasoning of the Board is:
- to keep the status quo in the Stock class for 2006.
- allow time for the tire companies to address the availability issues of appropriate race tire sizes in Stock
- Reexamine the issue for the 2007 season with the intent on allowing it in Super Stock.
Note that they have also excluded the GT3 in Stock as well. The tire issue could become moot tomorrow however, and in fact the tire companies have until April 30, 2006 to produce approppriate race rubber in 18" and 19" tires. IMHO the SCCA Solo II Board is premature and wrong in their ruling.

The tire issues may not be as quite a concern in T1 and the Solo Board rationale may not be the same as the Club Racing Board.

It will also be interesting to see how they address the Aluminum frame issue.
I suspect either:
- Steel mounting plates will be bolted to the frame and the cage welded to them OR
- Aluminum mounting plates welded to the frame and the cage bolted into them.
- There are also exotic Bi-Metal (Steel to Aluminum) welding techniques available.
The Aluminum frame really isn't as big a technical issue as some may think as there have been Aluminum Framed, Unibody and Monocoque cars racing since the '60's.

I also think you need to keep a close eye on Scotty's results this year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Will they allow the C6 Z06 in?
I am not sure about that. From what I have heard, the SCCA doesn't want 500 HP "showroom stock" racecars.

With a restrictor also?
If the C6 Z06 IS allowed in, then it HAS to have a restrictor. The C6 Z06 is the peer of the SRT10, and the Viper has a pretty substantial restrictor plate on it (although I am not sure it is enough).

Will the 427 be included as an upgrade on the C6 and C5 Z06 T1 Spec Line?
Maybe on the C6 Z51, but I doubt on the C5. If yes to the C5, let's hope it is allowed for the entire C5 age-group (1999-2004). There are some rules that prevent cars older than 7 years to be upgraded (unless a line-item is added to the GCR).

Will larger tires be included on the C6 Z06 (and the C5) Spec Line?
Gosh, I hope not, as I have four sets of wheels for my current car.

If what you are suggesting comes to pass, I will be racing TCC for awhile as my (and everyone else's) current car will be immdiately obsolete.
 

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I ran against SBW and the Naykid guys in Seattle and Portland over the past month and a 1/2. The Seattle race was pre T1 suspension and less restricted, I seemed to have had a little more speed at the end of that really long straight and slightly better braking everywhere,my suspension was a bit stiffer but only an advantage in 1 corner there(#2) they had the torque advantage everywhere.In Portland where they have a bunch of flat, medium speed corners the Vipers were really improved with the T1 kit and I couldn't pull them much(if at all) on those slightly shorter straights.They seemed to still have plenty of grunt but our race was in the rain with alot of slower traffic.

I am also considering a C6 for T1 next year but not a Viper because costs are just too high. Otherwise I am very impressed with the Viper, especially after hearing about Andrew Aquilantes session last week in the new Phoenix Viper.
 

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I think T1 has almost become Spec Z06 which in some ways is what SCCA does not really want.

I like having other cars in my race classes as it creates good rivalries as long as the sactioning body adjust the rules so all are on near as equal footing as you can expect.

:ity:
 
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