Corvette Z06 Forum banner

1 - 20 of 49 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Last night I found out the last of the Mohicans (gas stations carrying 92 gas) is dead. This started about 2 months ago with Chevron being the first to lower the octane of premium from 92 to 91, followed by 76, then Texaco. Tesoro still had 92 for some time and I was hoping they'd keep having it, but last night they betrayed me too.:mad: Apparently the CA disease has spread to Nevada and there's no cure. :puke:

Have you CA people noticed any performance difference between 92 and 91? I'd imagine you people are more seriously hit by this disease than I am because of the relatively high elevation here. Chances are 91 octane is all I need at 4500 ft. At least I can't say I've noticed any difference. But at sea level it might be noticable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,151 Posts
That crap gas is probably going to infect all major metro areas. I too am interested to see if anyone has tested various gasoline grades performance at the track. Maybe there's a difference in brands?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,616 Posts
Lost 6rwhp on dyno with California Crap Gas :puke:

Now I use MMT and got all 6 ponies back. I checked out using racing gas mix, but it's too inconvenient and expensive.

MMT Costs $2.70 a fill to get a 4 octane boost to 95 octane per 20 gallons of gas. I usually get 14-15 gallons per fill, so it's over 96 octane :D

I buy the stuff by the gallon and transfer to empty 16 oz containers. It's a small inconvenience to pay to get the performance back and then some. Buying by the gallon really cuts the cost.

I used MMT in my '93 TT Supra for 6 years and 60,000 miles. No problemo.....easily passed CA smog test when I sold her:)

Shawn at LAPD carries MMT and uses it in his girlfriend's Z, in his Coupe, and his awesome Big Black Impala.

If you do a search on this site for MMT, you'll find all the information you'll need.

If you look in your Z manual's index under MMT, GM says don't use it. You can stop there, or you can do some due diligence and find out the facts......which I outlined in a previous post.

HTH,

:cheers:
Barrie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,616 Posts
You're exactly right:D

You Guys in Canada get MMT in your gas. It's been that way since 1974. It works AND it doesn't screw up your engine or you're emissions systems.

We in California, Nevada, and soon the rest of This Country will have to add our own MMT :mad:

Oh well, it's really not that hard to put a little bottle of MMT in your gas tank just b4 you fill 'er up. Takes all of 15 seconds and costs $2.75.

The price we pay for Freedom and the ultimate persuit of horse power:D

:cheers:
Barrie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
01ZEE06, 6 rwhp is not much. I though it would be much worse. I certainly lose a lot more from the elevation here. BTW, what's your elevation over there? I'll do some research on MMT and see what it's all about.

Z06KahunaCanuck, lucky you! I've heard the US east coast and midwest still have 93 octane at the pump. Don't know what's wrong with the west. Some kind of communist revolution??:eek: :puke:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,616 Posts
Beggar,

You're absolutely right, 6rwhp ain't much, but I hate to lose ANY of mine.

Also, I'm planning on getting a cam, heads, underdrive pulley, SUPERCHARGER, etc., sooooo, the loss would be magnified. AND, my car is pretty damn loud at WOT, and with the CA Crap Gas in it I was not hearing detonation. On the computer it was detonating and running a max of 22 degrees btdc. With MMT, absolutely no detonation and it was maxing at 26 degrees btdc.

With a Supercharger, you want Zero detonation.

My altitude in Newhall, California is real close to 1,400' I'm about 45 minutes from the Ocean in Santa Monica and about 45 minutes to my "Ranch" in Frazier Park, where the altitude is 6,000 feet. So, my *normal* driving will run from sea level to 4,000 feet. I haven't noticed any loss of power up to 6,000 feet, but obviously I know there is a small loss.

I took my Z to the Ranch once(never again, the Ranch is 1 mile off the Highway and has very bad roads.....) and the 5 mile 2 lane straight as an arrow road was clear for a quick run.....did 135mph very quickly @5,500-5,800' (uphill). If I was on a drag strip I'd see the difference in my timeslip no doubt :D

:cheers:
Barrie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
01ZEE06, what does degrees btdc mean? Also why would a Z06 detonate? I thought our Z06 automatically retard timing to avoid detonation. By the way, you don't have any dyno results done at a higher altitude that show how much power is lost due to elevation, do you?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,028 Posts
C&D did an article on different grades of gas a month or so ago. Might even be online now.

chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,616 Posts
Beggar,

btdc=before top dead center, referring to the position of each piston in crankshaft degrees when the spark plugs fire. At 22 degrees btdc, the plugs fire at a piston position of 22 crank degrees before the piston reaches it's maximum height.

Yes, an LS6 will detonate. Detonation shows up on the dyno readouts as spiking. The PCM can make very rapid adjustments, but the engine at WOT is spining very rapidly. Under *normal* driving it can retard fast enough to immediately correct the problem once it detects detonation. Once the computer has retarded the timing, it will not advance timing until you refuel(at least 5 gallons). It then turns up the timing to run on about 94-95 octane fuel. Then it retards timing when any detonation is detected, and keeps reducing timing untill the problem is corrected.

Steve Cole, world famous tuner, has been working on my Z. I'm setting up an appointment to see him in January, or maybe February.....he's that busy! Above 4,000 rpm at WOT on the dyno, my fuel/air mixture is running rich at 11.9/12.0. I've been told that at 12.8, I can maybe pick up 20rwhp. After Steve finishes I'll get a dyno run and post results.

Like you, I thought that detonation was impossible. But, at WOT at 4,000 rpm, the spiking started. Apparently, by the time the PCM detects detonation and orders retardation, the engine, spinning 66 revolutions per SECOND on it's way to 110 revolutions per SECOND(4,000rpm to 6,600rpm), has already fired again.

You're right, no dyno is available in our sparsly populated mountains. I don't notice any "seat of the pants" loss of power, but from what I've read, it does happen. In the current issue of Vette Magazine, Corvette Connection of Denver has a blown LS1 which puts out 547rwhp at 5,280 feet elevation. At sea level, they claim that equates to 635rwhp. Soooooo, It looks like higher elevation does reduce HP.

HTH,

:cheers:
01ZEE06
Barrie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for the explanation. I noticed you have a lot of mods on your car, plus you live at a low elevation so that makes detonation more likely with CA crap gas. I doubt I get any detonation here at 4500 ft because of the loss of power (about 15%). What do you think?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,616 Posts
Beggar,

I honestly don't know the answer to your question, except to say that if you have the opportunity to get your car Dynoed on a Dynojet Brand Dyno they should be able to tell you if there is any detonation(which I would doubt as don't have all the mods) and what your timing is running. Just ask them ahead of time, so they will be looking for that info for you.

You could also go to Mr. Goodwrench and have them check your timing while at WOT in 3rd gear with their portable computer that plugs in under your steering wheel. I know my Chevy Mechanic real well, and he would do it for me without charging and would not be bothered by a 3rd gear pull from 3,000 to 6,000, which would get you from about 51 mph to about 102 mph.....,

Final thought would be to drop in 16oz of MMT and see if you notice any difference via the seat of your pants.

Higher altitude means thinner(less) air, which would mean a rich condition if you had a simple carburated engine. I'll bet the engineers designed the PCM in our Z's to compensate for less air by having the computer adjust for less gas when a sensor detects a change in barometric pressure based on higher elevation. I would also surmise that elevation by itself would have little or no effect on detonation.

I know that pressurized engines(Turbocharged/Supercharged) can cancel out a lot of the effects of less dense air. I learned this in aviation ground school.

Ever think about supercharging your Z?? Superchargers are smog legal and even with a 10.5 to 1 compression ratio the bottom of our engines can easily handle 7 pounds of boost, which will give you approximately a 40% increase in power.

You might want to talk to the high altitude guys at Corvette Connection in Denver to get better advise......

Finally, you hit the nail on the head, CA Crap Gas was my big problemo :D

:cheers:
Barrie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
631 Posts
Aaahhh the champagne of fuels - when gas was high - a scant couple of months ago - we were paying 90 cents a litre or 4.50 a gallon fer that stuff at the local Chevrons.

Thank goodness fuel is back down a bit !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Zapper, gas is cheap around here, about $1.30/gal for premium, but that doesn't add to my happiness at all. I'd gladly pay $3/gal for non-crap gas if I could.

01ZEE06, where do you buy MMT? I checked Kragen Auto parts the other night but they didn't have it. Also why does the owner's manual say it'll shorten the life of your spark plugs? Is that true? I wish I could find some racing gas around here to mix with premium. I did a search on the 76 website but the nearest gas station selling racing gas is several hundred miles away.:(

Supercharger would be nice, but I wanna keep my car stock. Maybe when the car gets older I'll feel different about it, but for now I don't wanna do a thing to it, other than giving it the gas it needs for best performance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,616 Posts
Beggar,

Shawn at LAPD, one of our vendors, has it. I've never had a problem with spark plugs. I think GM is worried about someone thinking "if a little is good, a lot more would be better." In other words, "let's put in 7 bottles and see what happens....."

MMT has been used , and still is used, in all Canadian Gasoline to boost octane.

If you want more detailed info on MMT, do a search on MMT on this Forum and see my prior posts and link that explains what MMT is and how it works.

The Canadian Gov't says it's harmless, and our EPA says it's perfectly OK to use. You may find a disclaimer on the bottle, but again, like GM, they are just covering their BUTTS!!!!

HTH,

:cheers:
Barrie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,491 Posts
I use Sunoco....

.....Ultra 94 when driving around town,
but when I go to the track its Sunoco Race Fuels
either:

Sunoco GT100 (100 Octane) or
Sunoco GT Plus (104 Octane)

Data and locations at

www.racegas.com

Distributor for Western States is:

Paul Oil Company
Attn: Mark Paul
524 N. Sierra Avenue
Oakdale, Ca. 95361
209-847-2281/800-527-6090
Fax: 209-847-9726
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
01ZEE06, I did a lot of research today on octane boosting and among many things I found the following article:
http://home.kscable.com/ssutton/miata/engine/toluene.html
It talks about using toluene as a cost-effective, harmless octane booster and also mentions that a "point" is 0.1 octane, not 1 octane. So if that's true that would make the LAPD product you use raise the octane by up to 0.7 octane as it says "up to 7 points". I also did a search for MMT on this site and found your old posts including the one where the LAPD vendor says a point is 1 octane. So what's the real deal? Did you ever do some kind of test to confirm that you really have 94-95 octane gas in your fuel tank after adding this product? Maybe it's just 91.4 - 91.5. 6 rwhp seems too little to be gained from a 3-4 octane boost especially since you say our Z06's our optimized for 94-95 octane gas. Also, for a 16 oz additive to raise the octane of say a 16 gallon tank from 91 to 95 would require that additive to be a lot more than 108 octane as the product label implies. From my calculation I really think a "point" is just 0.1 octane.

Today I also took a look at octane booster in Pep Boys. They have quite a few and much to my surprise many of them contain methanol.:eek: How about the LAPD booster?

Toluene is probably a better approach. The only problem might be finding a pure form of it. My co-worker just told me he couldn't find any when he needed it several years ago, but I'll try to find it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,616 Posts
Beggar,

Harmless?? Toluene is EXTREMELY toxic. They say if you spill some on your hand, you can feel it "run" up your arm. Also, it can make you sterile :eek: It should be handled with rubber gloves, protective clothing and a face shield. You must be licensed to buy the stuff, it's that dangerous.

Like you, about 6 years ago I wanted to use this stuff in my '93 highly moded TT Supra(21lbs of boost). I was all set to buy it in 55 gallon drums, but no one would sell it to me. You might find it in small quantities in a hardware store, but I doubt it. I think the EPA proabily pulled the stuff out of the reach of the general public as a safety measure.

This is the stuff they use in Formula 1 cars.....if I remember correctly, it's used in a 75/25% mix with gasoline for F1.

At $2.70 per 16oz(when you buy it buy the gallon and refill the bottles), I doubt that Toulene would be much cheaper, assuming you could get some.....also, what's the safety equipment gonna cost you?

I've never heard of 1 point being anything but 1 point. If these guys touting Toulene are so smart, why don't they tell people it's flat out dangerous and unattainable w/o a license from the EPA? I think they lose all credibility when they say it's harmless.

In percentage terms, 100 points equals 100%. For example, in getting my home loan refinanced, they wanted to charge me "points." 1 point=1% of the amount of the loan. I got a good deal @ 0 points on a Jumbo Loan @ 6.25% on a 15 year fixed rate loan!!

When the news media in California finally did the story on the end of 92 octane, they referred to it as a drop of one point. If we have 91 octane and another forum member has 94 available where he lives, we don't say he's got 30 more points of octane.....but, 3 more points.

The 108 Octane is a brand name North American Oil Company used for there very popular original product. The stuff we use is referred to 108 Octane Racing Fuel Concentrate. They have several different products under their Famous 108 Octane Brand name.

The bottle it comes in says to use 1oz per 1 gallon of gas. You may double or triple for racing. 3oz=a 7 octane boost, while 2oz is good for 5.5 octane boost, and 1oz raises octane 4 points. It's not a linear boost, so the effect diminishes with larger quantites.

I have a friend in our Corvette Club who is a big time racer, and he's a Manufacturer's Rep. for racing products. His latest product is a gasoline tester that many of the big racing teams use to test their gas before racing. Apparently racing gas goes bad real fast. I'll ask him if his $900.00 product will test for octane. If so, I'll have him test the gas in my Z's tank. I think this would be Kewl
:cool:

If you want to talk direct to North American Oil Company in Kennesaw, GA dial toll free: (866)484-8300, ask for Cal Yudin.

The way I know this stuff works is I did a Dyno run just B4 the switch to 91 octane. Then with 91 in the tank I did another Dyno run and lost 6 hp and gained a lot of knocking and timing was maxed out at 22 degrees btdc. Finally, with 91 and Racing Fuel Concentrate, I got back my 6 hp and the run showed no knocking and timing maxed out at 26 degrees btdc.

Shawn at LAPD said his sales of MMT skyrocketed after my post about a 6hp gain was made. A 6hp gain is not that much, but it's not that bad for the cost. So, a lot of people want a cheap 6hp plus it protects their engine from knocking. As a general rule of thumb, figure you'll spend about $100.00 per horsepower on Mods. Some, like intake, are less, and others are more. Some don't work as advertised or don't work at all. $100.00 is, of course, just an average but when I added up all the money spent for parts and, in my case, installation, it came out to be just about $100.00 per horsepower.

At that rate, 6hp=$600.00:eek: And MMT costs me just $2.70 per tank of gas. Me thinks it's worth it, but then again I'm an admitted "Modaholic."

Anyway, I'll let you know if we can test the Octane in my tank asap.....my friend travels a lot so it could take a few days to get to him if he says it can be done :guiness:

Thanks for the Questioning Attitude. I'm the same way....there's just so much B.S. out there it's sometimes difficult to find the facts.

:cheers:
Barrie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
282 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
01ZEE06, by harmless I meant that it won't hurt the car. I have no doubt it's a toxic substance to the human body. You're most likely right about the difficulty of obtaining toluene without a licence. Plus after I read your description of how dangerous the substance is I don't think I want to mess with it even if I could. Wonder what would happen if I actually drank that stuff.:eek: :lol:

I'm hoping you're right about the definition of a point because obviously I'd prefer your definition to be the case. On the other hand, it probably doesn't matter. All that matters is that you get no detonation and thus no timing retard with that product. You forgot to answer my question whether it has methanol as methanol is supposedly dangerous to our fuel system. Lead wouldn't be good either but I assume no octane booster on today's market contains lead anymore. I'm certainly interested in boosting my octane, but I haven't decided whether to order the LAPD product or use one of the other ones that are available in local stores. The Pennzoil Shogan Octane Booster and the Outlaw octane booster look pretty good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,616 Posts
Beggar,

Unfortunately, my friends fuel tester doesn't give an Octane readout. It just tests fuel for "freshness."

The correct phone # for Cal Yudin @ North American Oil Company is: (800) 554-3014. I had called information and got the wrong # :mad: :puke:

I called Cal and found that there is no Methanol in Racing Fuel Concentrate. No lead, Toulene, or any form of alcohol.....so, it's probabily not good to drink. :D

It contains Kerosene as a "delivery agent" and MMT. It's that simple. Of course, Kerosene it the fuel that Jet engined aircraft use.....So, it may not be Rocket Fuel, but you could call it Jet Fuel!!

Shogun and Outlaw are virtually the same thing. However, Cal wasn't sure of the amount of MMT in the other products. Racing Fuel Concentrate has the maximum dose of MMT the Law will allow them to use. Also, you can buy it by the Gallon direct from North American Oil if you don't mind refilling the bottles. The bottles have very long necks and work perfectly. You will never spill a drop on your paint. The cost works out to be $2.70 for 16oz.

With Toulene, being paint thinner, I dunno if it's really safe on your paint if you're dumping a gallon can into a funnel and constantly spilling it on your paint. I guess any of these chemicals might have an effect under constant abuse. In such a messy senerio, you'd probabily get it on you too. I'll have to be real careful when I start refilling the bottles.

I bought a bunch of the bottles from Shawn and 4 gallons of the stuff....should last me a year or so. I still haven't empied all the bottles. I was at LAPD yesterday, and it must be a real big seller, as he has tons of the stuff!!

I'll bet Shawn @ lapd will meet or beat the price of Pep Boys, and you'll know that your geting the mamimum strength. Also delivery to you would be a convenience.

Cal confirmed that it's "point" for "point."

Also, he said "remember, this is the same stuff used in all Canadian Gasoline since 1974 to boost Octane." It's still used today.

Well, we've beat this subject to death.:D

Let us know how it works for you.:)

:cheers:
Barrie
 
1 - 20 of 49 Posts
Top