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Discussion Starter #1
We have them in stock and can get more. They have a different part number than the LS1 and come sans the laminar honeycomb screen for maximum airflow.

The TRIC does not like the new MAF in particular due to the amount of air ingested by the TRIC. False signals make the TRIC surge slightly at coasting or slight decel throttle positions. We are working on a programming fix, which will make the TRIC much more pleasant to drive on the street..it still rules the track.

The SideWinder T-1 Intake is the smoothest, sweetest street system on the planet, with 17+ RWHP and 20-22 RWT over stock, dynoed the same day within 25 minutes of the stock pulls.

It gets cool air from the front airducting on the Z06 and is directly behind the driver's side vent.

The TRIC should still be used with the 2002 LS1 MAF for now, which eliminates all surging. The T-1 does not need the screen at all.

We have both MAFs in stock for those wishing to run either system.

Jim Hall
 

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Jim,

Before you said the hose was just loose on the 2002, with the tric. Now you say its surging, which one is it?

This isnt a flame at all, id really like to know. God knows how many times Ive thought ive fixed something only to have it come back. Just looking for info :cheers:
 

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Just bumping my threads. Im sure everyone would like to read the responses too :)
 
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Our first dyno numbers were done with a loose clamp on the TB. I was not insinuating anything by that, except that Chris didn't check things out when assembling our system.

Once the forum gets to know me, they will find that I report everything, good, bad, ugly, no matter what. Our product is that good.

If something fails the dyno for any reason, you know it shortly after I do. If you follow all of my threads, you can see where we make progress and where we don't.

If you want to order only after everything is tested, you fit 99% of our market.

We gaurantee our products, and that's why every component we sell either increases the performance of the Halltech Intakes, or it goes by by.

Notice, we do not offer programming? Waste of money, until the computer fails to adjust the WOT properly. We haven't reached that point yet.

As far as the elbow, on initial dynos it was not installed correctly by Chris, who I thought had things under control. Obviously he did not, but the fix is simple, but very necessary on the SideWinder for max performance.

This may account for why the SideWinder made the numbers 367/357, which we repeated three times in one afternoon, 30 minutes after our 350, 334, 344 stock pulls.

The injectors are so lean, that once any intake is installed, ours or others, the injectors are at over 90% duty cycle and above.

The are rated at 255 cc/min at 43 psi or 24.3 lbs./min static. This rating is the same as our 2000 LS1 injector size. Think we are just trying to sell injectors? Test them yourself and then test last years Z06 injectors which are bigger.

We now have the 30# injectors installed which have headroom for airflow growth up to around 485 HP. We are now at 440 HP.

I'll post our dyno sheets soon. We've been extremely busy this week.

Jim Hall
 

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Pretty cool Jim. Take it easy though im not doubting you. I know pleanty of people talk down on you, im not one of them. I recognize you as a reliable and knowledgeable source, so im trying to learn what I can from you, not question you.


ps Im talking about the surging on the TRIC not the sidewinder, whats the story on that? (as I have and would like to use the TRIC with the t-1 system.)
 
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Surging

I posted this information. I have had only one minor complaint. I should probably keep my mouth shut, but I am a perfectionist.

The 2002 runs very lean, and with the TRIC, the Open Loop settings for deceleration are insufficient. i.e. too lean. When using the TRIC, there is a sufficient amount of air being forced into the filter which causes this sensation.

This was not a problem for the 2001 Z06, since they ran with the screen (laminar airflow honeycomb). This acted as a pressure barrier, which is why many racers remove it. When you are on the throttle, you will never notice this.

I have asked a few 2002 TRIC guys about their experience and none have noticed it. It's that subtle. I personally don't like it, so it will be fixed.

This is what happens when the owner is a perfectionist.

Best\:cheers:

Jim
 

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Would adding higher pressure injectors fix the surging problem since you wouldnt have the leanness, or is this a programming thing?
 
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The Dyno accuracy

KilrZ06 said:
Would adding higher pressure injectors fix the surging problem since you wouldnt have the leanness, or is this a programming thing?
The problem is in the Closed Loop cell 21 (deceleration)
This is the cell affecting deceleration (foot off the throttle)
Even with our 30# injectors, there is a slight feeling of surging at zero g. The Magic Box addressed this problem on the 2001 Z06s with the Granatelli MAF and the screen out senario, but is not the way we want to go on the 2002.

All other closed loop fuel cells return to stoichiometric (GM likes 14.6:1) within a few miles of driving normally. (usually 50 or so miles, with one cooldown session overnight)

WOT is also Open Loop, but does richen up with bigger injectors during full throttle settings. Too much injector here, is not good. The proper a/f ratio differs with each engine, and is also affected by water temp, oil temp, barometric pressure, altitude, and several other factors. This is why dyno tests done by the consumer will yield numbers which can vary from expectations from one day to the next, one dyno to the next, even on the same dyno, same day, within two minutes of one pull to the next.

Our 310 cc/[email protected] injectors vs stock of 255cc/[email protected] make a difference but the primary objective is to provide an injector that is not already too small from the factory and way too small with an intake mod. Our a/f ratio at WOT is just right with the blueprinted RC Injectors, and no more spark knock timing retard. They provide enough headroom for additional airflow to the 485 to 500 HP mark (flywheel). Katech Engines uses 36# injectors with there LS1 to Z06 conversion packages making 440 to 485 RWHP. They are using bigger valves, head work, and a larger cam in their upgrade package. I asked Russ Collins at RC how the 255 cc/min injectors could make the 405 HP on the 2002, and he stated that the Bosche Injectors have very lightweight components which allows them to run at well above the 80% duty cycle, but suggested that they were dialed in for smog considerations, not performance. Two less cats? Leaner injectors make sense for the stock intake, but that's it.

One very important thing to ask of the dyno numbers posted anywhere is the S (smoothing value) There are 5 difference smoothing views that can be used on the DynoJet Dyno. S-1,2,3,4,and 5. Someone who wants the highest numbers on one pull vs another can hit F4 on the computer and change the peak RWHP and Torque numbers by as much as 5 HP.

S Value Viewing: On our 367/357 pull on the SideWinder, there were S values which would have put our numbers OVER 370 RWHP. Since Darren uses S-3 on all dyno pulls as a standard, we use that same value for stock, Halltech, or whatever we do. Is is tempting to change it? Only if you are trying to fool the public.

Tire pressure: Another area of discrepancy, and one that someone could use to 'play with the numbers' is the rear tire pressure. Our tire pressure was not touched from the factory. They were at 36 psi for all pulls, stock and Halltech. Letting air out of the tires can effectively lower numbers by as much as 15 RWHP according to Darren at R&D, and Steve at Powertrain Dynamics. So if you run stock at say 22 psi and your mod at 36 psi, you've got 15 RWHP without touching the engine.

Ice: Some guys take a bag of ice and put it on the intake manifold to increase dyno numbers. I have heard that it works, but have never tried it.

Fuel: 91 Octane anyone? Sure it works, but the Z06 calls for 93 Octane. The manual states 91, but I gaurantee that if your water temps are up, and the Octane down, spark knock sensors will go into overtime. So heat up the motor real good, do your stock pulls with plenty of spark knock, then add high Octane fuel and do your mod pulls> Result: 6 to 7 RWHP. Halltech dynos with the fuel available at the local pump only. For all pulls.

For instance, the stock pulls on our 2002 have varied from a low of 334 RWHP to 350 RWHP within two minutes on the dyno. This was due to the water temp changing only 15 degrees. This is why our T-1 kit, which addresses this inconsistancy in water temps.

Another problem is the dyno software. It makes assumptions based on barometric pressure, water vapor, ambient temperature, and altitude.

A baseline of 1.00 is what we try to dyno at each time, so that the dyno software trimming is not a factor in these inconsistancies. We also have been dynoing at 198 water temps, which are too high, but without a thermostat, we are stuck. We dyno with a fan blowing into the radiator cavity to keep water temps as cool as possible and to allow ambient airflow to the filter. Oil temps should be 210-degrees or above. 210 is where API rates the oil viscosity, so lower than that will take away power since the oil is not even at operating viscosity.

When dyno testing is done on a very hot day, with less than ideal conditions, the correction factors used by outdated DOS software literally 'guess' at the horsepower numbers.

As you can see, dyno testing is a science and even when done under the very best conditions, by shops that do this for a living every day, numbers should be used as baselines against mods done on that day only, AFTER PCM LEARN drives. Any other dynos are useless and serve only to confuse.

[One last point: None of the dynos will show the effect of ram air, or even cold air. The reason is simple. Dynos are in an enclosed area, which heats up as pulls are done. The engine is getting no outside ambient air to cool the engine, water and intake. Does it matter? What do you think?

Ram air does not exist with our systems, and would not work without extensive PCM trimming. The turbulence of TRUE ram air would make metering airflow extremely difficult, but not impossible. The basic problem would be to have one a/f ratio for vacuum at the manifold and another a/f ratio when the manifold saw some positive pressure. This pressure can be as much as .3 to .7 psi between 100 and 200 mph. Warren Johnson claims to have been able to see 1 psi at 200 mph in his enclosed airbox. Since he uses carburetion with no way to trim the a/f ratio, he must set the jetting at the ideal a/f ratio for this amount of boost, but will suffer some degredation of performance prior to the ram effect.

Jim Hall
 

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Halltech Tric

Jim, having little or no fear regarding water ingestion and since I am a true believer in your products I still remain a bit concerned regarding the lean and surging issue that you have brought to light in your recent posts. My '02 is ready but I don't want to deal with these 2 potential challenges. I just want to install the unit and enjoy the JOLT without issues. Should I continue to wait until all is resolved or is it already resolved ? As always thanks for your honesty and your resolve to make your products better, FUBU69/LES
 

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No they arent smaller, they are the same size as the ls1's. The problem with that being more air is going through the ls6 this year, making them have to work harder all the time to keep from running with a lean condition. This added with an intake would be completely unacceptable, as the injectors would have to run at a higher "duty cycle" meaning they would have to be pushing at their top capacity for most of the time. This is why bigger injectors make sense.

Am I right?
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Re: fuel injectors

impalanut said:
Do I understand correctly that the 2002 Z has smaller injectors than the 2001? If so, why do think this was done?
We have not actually tested the 01 injectors, but according to data readily available they were at the 3.6 grams/sec level, which is around 30#/hr. I would be happy to have them tested. If someone has 3 or 4, we can get the numbers for you.

The 2002 injectors testing at 24.3 lbs./hr. are the same size as our 2000 LS1 injectors tested last year. I can get the exact comparison if anyone is interested.

I will need the 2001 Z06 injectors, since they were definately a step larger than the 2001 LS1 injectors.

Why was it done:-? Only an educated guess. Smog tests. By removing the pup cats and changing the cam lift, any left-over fuel in the combustion process would be a greater challange for the solo cats. This Z06 is the cleanest burning C5 of all time, according to sources at GM. I not knocking GM here at all. The aftermarket is never considered when changes are made to engines. That's our challange.

As far as the water issue, there isn't one. Just don't submerge your car in deep water. Even the stock intake will ingets water under those conditions.

Surging. As I said, the fixes:

1) OPTION 1: The screened 2001 Z06 MAF will fix this problem permanently and we will exchange it for your 2002 MAF FREE; you will NOT lose any HP! Ask Ranger ([email protected]) If you have a 2002 TRIC System we will ship the MAF FREE of charge and wait one week for the exchange of your MAF before charging you. The MAF ala-carte runs $99.00 if you prefer just to purchase it outright AND keep your 02 MAF.

2) OPTION 2: Purchase the T-1 intake (SideWinder) carbon fiber elbow. It LOVES the screenless stock MAF as our 367 RWHP/357 RWT numbers show whether 2001 or 2002- elbows convert your TRIC to underhood T-1 for $129.00 and can be done in 10 minutes.

3) OPTION 3: Exchange the TRIC patented S-tunnel for the SideWinder elbow FREE.

4) Programming change: Working on this. The progamming would enrich the Fuel Trim which is affected by this.

5) You may not even notice it, since it has been reported by only one customer (would'nt it be nice if all manufactures posted any complaints about their products, even if only one customer complained? Firestone? Phillip Morris? B&B?)

Call me Monday with any questions.

Jim

P.S. Steve Merekov of C5 Performance.com sells about 20 TRIC intakes per month and is our best distributor. He is actively involved in the dynamic programming area, with a program that has resulted in 15 RWHP on the Z06. I am meeting with him next week to build a strong program for the Z06, which will blow the doors off of any "off the shelf" or so called "designer programming" . Our 2002 Z06 will be the next to get this program. Goal: 385 to 390 RWHP without breaking into the motor. WE WILL have the TRIC onboard for the T-2 package. The SideWinder will also have progamming, but will not need much. It is dialed in right now with our T-1 package.

Jim Hall
 
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Discussion Starter #13
KilrZ06 said:
No they arent smaller, they are the same size as the ls1's. The problem with that being more air is going through the ls6 this year, making them have to work harder all the time to keep from running with a lean condition. This added with an intake would be completely unacceptable, as the injectors would have to run at a higher "duty cycle" meaning they would have to be pushing at their top capacity for most of the time. This is why bigger injectors make sense.

Am I right?
Yes
 

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Jim

I really appreciate your feedback. Im really learning alot!! Im a computer consultant that never got my fathers "gear head" bug until I was 18..so im still learning and I appreciate it.
 

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Surging

When I pulled my MAF screen out on my 01 I had the surging at 2500 rpms crusing in 4th gear. I have since put a diferent filter on my cool air system and the surging is gone. You might want to think about the filter cartdridge you are using.
I didn't just parachute in on this subbject, lots of test.
Yes, I do build a cool air system that is distributed by a company and like you I do a lot of R&D.

Jim,
If I'm not mistaken isn't the 02 Z06 MAF the GM truck MAF with the screen removed?
 
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Re: Surging

FRC Tom said:
When I pulled my MAF screen out on my 01 I had the surging at 2500 rpms crusing in 4th gear. I have since put a diferent filter on my cool air system and the surging is gone. You might want to think about the filter cartdridge you are using.
I didn't just parachute in on this subbject, lots of test.
Yes, I do build a cool air system that is distributed by a company and like you I do a lot of R&D.

Jim,
If I'm not mistaken isn't the 02 Z06 MAF the GM truck MAF with the screen removed?
You are correct about the filter design. The Wedge is perfect for the TRIC but not so for the T1.

Poorly designed filters that create turbulence at the meter wires in the MAF. The closer the filter is to the MAF, the more suseptible the meter is to this turbulence, and subsequent codes. The code is not for real. What is happening is the turbulence causes the MAF to "misread" the actual airflow by missing airmass or measuring it more than once in the case of severe turbulence.

The honeycomb MAF screen was introduced many years ago, with it's concept in wind tunnel testing. The idea is to create fully developed laminar airflow at the wire sensor. This year, with its removal on the Z06, the airfilter design and intake design are much more important than in the past.

This is where the real world difference in systems can be seen. The driveability of the car throughout the throttle position transistions make some intakes seamless and crisp and others good for WOT only.

Even our T1 responds differently with our experimental filter vs the Wedge. The experimental filter is only good for 2 RWHP over the Wedge on the dyno 369.1 vs 367, but the response and seamless instant response on the street makes it feel like 10 RWHP.

This concept is very hard to sell, since everyone is hung up on BIG numbers. In the real world, torque is more important, and second to torque is throttle response.

Hope this makes sense.

Jim Hall
 
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