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Z06 setup: Stock (no longer virgin stock, since the SideWinder had to be removed and the stock airbox re-installed. 158 miles of relearn over 3 days. It normally takes no more than 10 miles to relearn. Full relearn of all trims, usually 15 to 20 miles, and one idle learn session.

First dyno done by Powertrain Dynamics today, by the shop owner. No input from Jim, just an observer. My instructions to him:

Dyno the way you always do, and get the best stock run possible.

He always dynos with the hood up (synthetic conditions in my opinion, no fans anywhere) He states that his dyno tests are done the way Roush (from Mustang fame) dynos his vehicles, since he was there once.

Why synthetic? You do not drive with your hood up, and the ambient air is not available to the stock or the SideWinder system, so why dyno that way. It's ok to let the engine cool down with fans to get a water temp baseline, but the fans should only be directed at the front of the car, simulating the real world.

I realize the hood open brings bigger numbers to the table. At Halltech we are purists when it comes time to the dyno. When you inject a condition which duplicates nothing in the real world, the loser is the buyer.

They also dyno without cooldown, which today was done because of time restraints that I put on them, but never the less, on the 2002 Z06. The first pull will be the best pull!

We have over 18 pulls on the 2002, and so far without giving away any secrets, here are the numbers:

Today: 1st pull 344.4 RWHP/333.3 RWT done at 12:12:00 PM; second pull: 339.2/333.3 Done at 12:12:38 PM or 38 seconds later. (1st number will always be RWHP; 2nd RW Torque.
Correction factor for both: .99-Huntington Beach, CA . 2nd dyno was within 2 RWHP of the dyno done at R&D last week.

Shop 2: (R&D Dyno) Z06 left in the hands of the owner Darren for his standard dyno setup. He also lifts the hood, and since this was going to be independant of Jim Hall, we said nothing. Our instructions to Darren were to get the very best pulls possible out of stock.

On his fist pull, he put Halltech out of business, or so we thought. No kidding, this one pull invalidated the 337 pull recorded the other day. What the hell, the truth is what we strive for. I asked Darren how it could have changed that much. He said we did have one pull last week at 344, but he printed the wrong one for comparison.

Now I'm thinking, Halltech's very existance hangs on our product producing results. We estimated before we ever had an 02 that we would see 10 RWHP. Now we had 1.5 more than the other SideWinder best pull. This is the same senario as Corvette Bob's dynos. The three 02s dynoed that we know of dynoed at 349, 350, and 350.8 (Ours) respectively.

Pulls: Halltech 11: 350.8/337.2 Ouch! Done at 2:09PM
Halltech 12: 337.6/333.6 What the Hell? Done two minutes later at 2:11 PM
Halltech 13: 367.0/357 I which someone could have been there to take a picture of my face!!!!!!!
:guiness: SideWinder installed with 8 miles relearn and the same water temp as Halltech 11. Done at 3:29 PM_ This is the best dyno pull ever for Halltech regardless of the mods. The SideWinder was installed without the ported throttle body or other T-1 mods soon to be released.
Halltech 14: 362.8/352.5 done at 3:31PM

If we didn't have to leave due to another customer waiting, I know beyond a doubt we could have hit 370 RWHP with a cooldown session.

That is 432 HP with JUST the SideWinder. Who said 13 was not a lucky number. Thank you Corvette Bob, for making Halltech go back to the dyno!!!!!! This thing screams!!!

Now the news: I did make one small change to the SideWinder tested. Our NEW Z1000 DONALDSON Prototype FILTER. We have been in talks with Donaldson to get this special filter for the SideWinder, but this is a prototype. The filter is different, but there is another reason for the significant differences in the pulls, even with stock. The only other change was Darren in the drivers seat with the hood up instead of down.

If you look at the dyno from last week, at 337 RWHP we are making 30 Rear Wheel Horsepower over the stock setup. Under ideal and synthetic conditions, we make 17 RWHP and almost 20 lbs. ft. torque over stock. As I said before, the hood up really makes thing look better and this is the way its done throughout the industry, but I don't agree with the method.

The Halltech T-1 will address this condition. We expect 375 RWHP with the SideWinder T-1, and 380 with the TRIC T-1. Too bold with my numbers? I know we could have hit 370 today. 375 should be a very conservative and obtainable number for the SideWinder.

The TRIC will make a few more HP and Torque, but presently the 2002 TRIC needs a small fix, to offset some surging caused by the minimal ram air condition, which is not pleasant around town. This is due to GMs removal of the screen. We know what to do.

I will post the actual dyno numbers tomorrow when I get to our scanner.

ALL DYNO NUMBERS WERE OBTAINED FROM INDEPENDANT SHOPS, OPERATED SOLELY BY THE OWNERS. These number are repeatable on your local dyno under similar dyno conditions.

Halltech knows why the numbers drop significantly, but this is our trade secret at this point, and will be addressed in the T-1 setup.

That's next. Thursday, back to R&D for the SideWinder T-1 dyno. I can't wait!
:guiness:
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Re: Next Sale?

AgentZ06 said:
Hey Jim... when's the next BIG sale on the Sidewinder? :D
I tried to call Halltech from R&D and instead got someone at GM's executive office. We have the Sprint deal which allows you to dial by saying the name. Good for car crashes when your arms no longer work. Our contact there has a name that sounds similar to our shop name, so I told him the news.

I am so increadibly stoked about this, I really believe the SideWinder should be GM issued on the anniversary edition.

17 RWHP!!!!!! 20 RW Torque!!!!!!!! No bragging just :eek:

I called Pam and Chris at Halltech and told them the news, Chris said we're going to need more SideWinders......

If you have a SideWinder, and want the Donaldson Z1000 filter, when they come in we will ship you one free of charge. You can save the Wedge for the TRIC. It's shape is great for our ram air system.

Whoohoo!
 

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Very interesting results Jim.....

Gotta move this over to Pit Road........

But I'll leave a marker cause many ppl were interested in your results.

JC
 

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Great report. I too am interested in why the numbers fall off so much. It will be interesting to see if you can pull consistant numbers with the T-1 setup. Sounds like you are on to something. :cheers:
 

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I for one would like to see some consistent numbers. Can you post all the pulls in an easier to read format so we can see some averages?
 
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Consistant numbers

I will be posting the actual dyno sheets tomorrow. If you mean you want the 2002 Z06 to be consistant on the dyno, good luck.

I posted as many pulls as I will be posting. The very best pull we ever made stock: 350/337

SideWinder: 367/357

There will always be those that we will not be able to satisfy no matter how many stock pulls we make. Dynoing as we did today, at two different shops 50 miles apart, with no interferance from me, should satisfy all but the most hardcore enthusiast.

No problem, we expect this, but our dynos last week were under a microscope due to the very low stock numbers compared with two other Z06s dynoed recently. Since we made 350 on one stock pull, it vindicates those other stock pulls, our Z06, and most of all GM. There is a problem getting those high numbers from stock.

No trickery was involved in the 350 RWHP dyno, but it was the only one we ever saw, out of 9 stock dyno pulls. Later if you like I could have the dyno shops post all of the dynos, but the three SideWinder pulls today all went well over 360.

Our guarantee: If you buy it and don't like the extra 17 HP and 20 ft. lbs torque, send it back for a full refund.

Jim
 

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I'm just wondering what happened to pulls 4 through 10. I don't see them in the text above, but maybe I'm missing it.

Can you say why you think the '02s are so erratic? My '01 dyno'd three straight times EXACTLY the same...the lines on the dyno sheet just look like one.
 

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I'd say that's one hell of a guarantee......

All this talk of the sidewinder and me with my tric :(
-JC kicks sand- :)

Jim, would you post these results in the data center?

If not, I can collect the images and post them for you.....

JC
 
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Other pulls

I think they are the pulls from last weeks dyno session.

In posting dyno numbers, if we make three pulls with the SideWinder and post all three, maybe you'll understand.

The secret to it's erractic behavior is information that we have discovered through our dyno sessions.

Nothing surreptitious here, but it cost Halltech a lot of $$$R&D$$$ to gather this information.

There's nothing wrong with the 2002 C5. It is a monster Trade in you 01! It just needs a little help in certain areas. The intake is just the start.

The 2001 Z06s were also dynoing anywhere from 330 to 343, so they did not always dyno the same.

The 2002s, so far, all make 349 to 350 on the best stock pulls.

There is enough information in my post to figure it out.

Jim
 

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Jim:
I currently have a K&N filter on the stock air box with a sleeve connecting it to the TB. This is also a bottom breather setup.
I also dyno the car with the hood up and a fan at the front of the car.
In my sig you can see my latest dyno #s and my other mods.
What are the chances of getting another 13 rwhp out of your SideWinder?
I am trying to get 375 rwhp with bolt-ons.

Thank You.
 

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I think three factors that contribute to consistency are:

1) leave hood for all pulls to reduce heat soak effect
2) forced air blower(s) directed toward front of car
3) allow adequate time for cooldown between pulls


All work toward accomplishing the same thing - helping to keep internal engine operating temperature conditions cooler at the outset of each dyno pull.

Jim's right, the first does not replicate the real world at all. The second actually does simulate actual driving conditions but only at relatively slow highway speeds like under 50mph. And the third is kind of a fudge factor that can be dealt with in the real world in a number of ways such as the tricks employed by drag racers waiting in the staging lane. A low temperature thermostat and reprogrammed PCM setpoints for turning on the radiator cooling fans or manual control switch override.

I think Jim might well have improved on the 367 rwhp pull and certainly on the subsequent pull with the prototype Sidewinder configuration *if* time permitted for more effective cooldown of the engine.

Significant changes in engine operating conditions, I think is the most likely reason for variation of rwhp measurements. Engine temp and the octane of the fuel are two influencing factors that the dyno test cannot control, but both can have a dramatic affect on the test results.

Unfortunately, the Dynojet's SAE correction factor does not how to account for "internal" engine conditions, only external conditions. For example, if the dyno's instrumentation somehow had a sensor hooked up to the engine's coolant system, (or even better, the engine oil lubrication system), the correction factor software could be "normalize" for such a parameter. Then, there would be a way to compensate for frictional loses internal to the engine and make the rwhp measurement much more consistent from pull to pull.

I'm actually surprised dynojet hasn't come up with something like this yet since everyone seems to agree that the consistency of the measurements is the important thing, and subsequent delta measured for various types of mods even more so. The absolute #s at the peaks are really more for bragging rights and serve little purpose. For that matter, car owners tend to inflate their drive line losses to suit the latter purpose anyway. ;)
 

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It would be interesting to see the same tests performed at a drag strip with a to b and b to a comparisons. This would show real world results assuming the driver is consistent. I would like to see this done with at least 93 octane so that we would know what the best possible improvement would be.
 

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I agree with dsinned.

Jim as a potential customer, what I would like to see would be *all* of your pulls done at a consistent engine temperature with a fan blowing at the front of the car (apples to apples).

Looking at your data, we can try to infer from your information how things went, for example, after the switch from stock to the sidewinder, the first sidewinder pull was probably on a cooled down engine, but I would rather you give us all of that information up front. What was the coolant temp on each run, 11, 12, 13 and 14?

I'd would also like to see Autotap info on every pull indicating any timing retard present along with the engine temps. Without all the data, its kind of hard to know what the data you present really means. Is the computer pulling timing on one run and not the other? This is what inquiring minds want to know.

I commend you on your "money back" guarentee, but before I buy, I would really like to know *exactly* what I can expect to get out of it, and if it is really any better than just a K&N filter element and me cutting a larger opening in my stock 02 airbox.
 

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BCSX3170 said:
It would be interesting to see the same tests performed at a drag strip with a to b and b to a comparisons. This would show real world results assuming the driver is consistent. I would like to see this done with at least 93 octane so that we would know what the best possible improvement would be.
I think drag results are the LEAST reliable......Now, instead of the normal variations of the dyno, temp, and such, you have those PLUS a human......Not a good idea IMHO.....

I think Jim is on to something, let's wait it out.....

JC
 
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Discussion Starter #18
The next step

QUOTE]Originally posted by dsinned
I think three factors that contribute to consistency are:

1) leave hood for all pulls to reduce heat soak effect
2) forced air blower(s) directed toward front of car
3) allow adequate time for cooldown between pulls


All work toward accomplishing the same thing - helping to keep internal engine operating temperature conditions cooler at the outset of each dyno pull.

Jim's right, the first does not replicate the real world at all. The second actually does simulate actual driving conditions but only at relatively slow highway speeds like under 50mph. And the third is kind of a fudge factor that can be dealt with in the real world in a number of ways such as the tricks employed by drag racers waiting in the staging lane. A low temperature thermostat and reprogrammed PCM setpoints for turning on the radiator cooling fans or manual control switch override.

I think Jim might well have improved on the 367 rwhp pull and certainly on the subsequent pull with the prototype Sidewinder configuration *if* time permitted for more effective cooldown of the engine.

Significant changes in engine operating conditions, I think is the most likely reason for variation of rwhp measurements. Engine temp and the octane of the fuel are two influencing factors that the dyno test cannot control, but both can have a dramatic affect on the test results.

Unfortunately, the Dynojet's SAE correction factor does not how to account for "internal" engine conditions, only external conditions. For example, if the dyno's instrumentation somehow had a sensor hooked up to the engine's coolant system, (or even better, the engine oil lubrication system), the correction factor software could be "normalize" for such a parameter. Then, there would be a way to compensate for frictional loses internal to the engine and make the rwhp measurement much more consistent from pull to pull.

I'm actually surprised dynojet hasn't come up with something like this yet since everyone seems to agree that the consistency of the measurements is the important thing, and subsequent delta measured for various types of mods even more so. The absolute #s at the peaks are really more for bragging rights and serve little purpose. For that matter, car owners tend to inflate their drive line losses to suit the latter purpose anyway. ;)
[/QUOTE]

You've must have been there today, because you nailed it.

Our SideWinder and TRIC T-1 systems will deal with the issues that cause this extreme delta between pulls.

This anomoly of lower pulls, happens with precision, as the water temps go up.

It is no secret that in the past we have not paid special attention to temperatures, finding that on the dyno, the pulls continued to get better around the third pull. We have dynoed over 150 pulls on three different cars and four different engines. We have watched hundreds more during different dyno days and have been there to watch LS1s, with heads, cam, nitrous and other mods.

The 2002 is different. We know why now.

Thursday we dyno several of our T-1 components, with the rest still in development. We may have to wait until the T-2 for at least one of the mods due to a patent process the inventor has been pursuing , and for good reason.

Once the dyno numbers are done, we'll launch the T-1 package.
This is not a hype thing. Halltech is sucessful enough that we don't need the "Red Light Specials" anymore.

If we can't make the power, we dump the part. The SideWinder was on the chopping block today, and boy did it come through.
I can repeat this dyno, over and over again, with the same results. So can you, if you dyno the way these guys did today.

In our zeal to be as fair and honest as possible on the dyno pulls, we kept the hood closed. Never before has it made much difference, but that was before. This leads to the answer.

I am going to post our complete findings and evaluation from our perspective on a separate thread once we have the jump on our competition. I revealed information once about our Cobra, to the competition, and they had one on the market within two months. Then all the copycats. That's ok, since this is the greatest form of flattery. There's room for all systems out there, with each doing its own thing.

I don't know if you can sense pride here, but todays results, can be duplicated over and over again, which is where we want to be.

By the way, the T-1 will not be that expensive, just focused on the intake system. The T-2 will be our project to improve on the exhaust system, which will be a very hard act to follow.

GM has a real winner with the 2002!
 
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Discussion Starter #19
FRC Tom said:
Jim:
I currently have a K&N filter on the stock air box with a sleeve connecting it to the TB. This is also a bottom breather setup.
I also dyno the car with the hood up and a fan at the front of the car.
In my sig you can see my latest dyno #s and my other mods.
What are the chances of getting another 13 rwhp out of your SideWinder?
I am trying to get 375 rwhp with bolt-ons.

Thank You.
Hi Tom, Our goal now is to move forward, after what seemed like a nightmare on this stock numbers game.

Sometimes we move too fast with our units, getting them to market after initial testing provide us with awesome SOTP results.

Now that this monster makes the numbers, we can push into the next era.

When I say that the SideWinder was the only mod, I am serious. We haven't even changed the oil. We have oil that makes 1% on the dyno, any dyno. Even Warren Johnsons. I used to work for a oil company that sponsored many of the #1 Pro Stock cars and AA Fuel Dragsters. This oil is only one part of the picture coming to Kansas.

If our numbers had remained lower than the 2001, launching anything would have seemed futile at best. Now the confidence has waxed strong, so the other mods will really provide results.

375 will be a minimum number. Our goal is 378 with the T-1 and 390 with the T-2. I think your goals match ours!

BTW, I've heard great things about your ride. 360 + already.

Jim
 

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Halltech said:


Hi Tom, Our goal now is to move forward, after what seemed like a nightmare on this stock numbers game.

Sometimes we move too fast with our units, getting them to market after initial testing provide us with awesome SOTP results.

Now that this monster makes the numbers, we can push into the next era.

When I say that the SideWinder was the only mod, I am serious. We haven't even changed the oil. We have oil that makes 1% on the dyno, any dyno. Even Warren Johnsons. I used to work for a oil company that sponsored many of the #1 Pro Stock cars and AA Fuel Dragsters. This oil is only one part of the picture coming to Kansas.

If our numbers had remained lower than the 2001, launching anything would have seemed futile at best. Now the confidence has waxed strong, so the other mods will really provide results.

375 will be a minimum number. Our goal is 378 with the T-1 and 390 with the T-2. I think your goals match ours!

BTW, I've heard great things about your ride. 360 + already.

Jim
Thank you Jim> I just need another 11-12 hp to reach my goal.
I'll be watching closely. :D
 
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