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Discussion Starter #1
I realize this is going to send some of you into fits of rage, but posting this may provide a lead me to a useful discussion with the .02% of like minded individuals.

I am interested in removing the ABS system. In other cars, I have completely removed the ABS system and installed a proportioning valve and the pedal feel had become incredible. It is unbelievable how much pedal feel is lost due to ABS. There is also the benefit of some weight savings and the car becomes easy to initiate a high speed slide on demand, which ABS tends to work against. Laugh if you want, but it is the accumulation of little enhancements that gives one an edge. Take for instance the Katech Club Sport. It has really quite minor enhancements that add up to a good weight savings (2825 lbs) at a starting cost of $109,000

Personally, I dont like traction control, tire pressure monitors, ABS, stereos, carpeting, or chrome anything. What I love is a light, purpose built (or modified) vehicle that goes around a road course with authority. The C6 Z06 has the chassis, the engine of course!, the brakes, tranny, weight balance and wide stance of a world class performance car. All I have to do is rid it of some of the gadgetry and gizmos that take away from the driving experience.

Are there any fringe elements lurking about that I can bounce some ideas off of?

Im wearing nomex and i have my hand on the halon system... flame away!
 

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You may want to get a service manual to see what all computers use/need ABS/traction control inputs to function. Much easier to just pull the fuse for it while you're on the track. I put a proportioning spring into my '93 ZR-1 and pulled the fuse. Put it back in when I got it home. The proportioning spring gave a great feel, but I had the security of knowing I still had ABS/traction control for the occasional Bambi that runs out into roads without looking.
As far as light weight no frills for the track, I agree. I have a Consulier GTP that I am swapping out the Chrysler turbo II to a Cobalt SS turbo motor. I think it's going to be a nightmare to get the electronics to work, as the car doesn't have ABS/traction control/stability etc. The ECM receives inputs from the BCM for that and security modules for sure and not sure yet what else. I've got the service manual, (8" thick!) to help with scematics etc. I'm sure the Z06's are as complicated, if not more so. Good luck:mug:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Bean, thankyou! I really thought I would get a severe beating from the forum crowd for suggesting such things. Im so glad to see that there are others out there with similar inclinations.

I will check out how the car feels after pulling the fuse.

In previous cars, removing the ABS hardware altogether made the brake pedal became 1000% more firm. Braking power was very enhanced and felt rock solid and instantaneous as opposed to a spongy vague feeling through an ABS system (even with stainless braided lines installed). The feedback through the pedal was worlds better as well.

Your project sounds fantastic. I would love to follow your progress if you post it on a web page somewhere.

I have ordered the factory manuals. They were backordered, so I am still waiting on them.
 

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^ You may want to PM DJ Worm, and or Subdriver on here. These guys race all of the time and can give you solid advice. I like the Nanny's myself as they have saved me a couple of times since owning the Z, but understand it could be useful on the track to disable them. Good luck and report back if you get the results you were looking for. Don
 

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Bean, thankyou! I really thought I would get a severe beating from the forum crowd for suggesting such things. Im so glad to see that there are others out there with similar inclinations.

I will check out how the car feels after pulling the fuse.

In previous cars, removing the ABS hardware altogether made the brake pedal became 1000% more firm. Braking power was very enhanced and felt rock solid and instantaneous as opposed to a spongy vague feeling through an ABS system (even with stainless braided lines installed). The feedback through the pedal was worlds better as well.

Your project sounds fantastic. I would love to follow your progress if you post it on a web page somewhere.

I have ordered the factory manuals. They were backordered, so I am still waiting on them.

I have it in a thread in The Garage section, under My new project/headache
 

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Hmmm.....
1. Although it is true that almost all of the top National level drivers turn OFF the Traction Contol and Active Handling when competing.; they do not remove the system from the car (computer, wheel speed sensors, yaw sensors). Not because the don't want to save weight...it's because, in fact, the DO use the system in the wet especially with standing water.

2. It is also true that a driver with PROPER THRESHHOLD BRAKING TECHNIQUES will consistantly turn lower lap times than a driver constantly in the ABS. However just the opposite is true in the wet.

The key here is NOT to remove the ABS but to develope driving techniques that do not activate the ABS (in dry conditions).

All of the above universally applies to race course, AutoX and street driving.

There are other reasons NOT to remove the ABS:
- You really do not save much weight (2 pounds of sprung weight)
- The Automatic Brake Proportioning System is far superior to any manual system you can install. It senses and adjust multiple parameters at least 10 times PER SECOND. Even if you had a navigator in the passenger seat (ala Rally) he couldn't make the correct adjustments using a manual system even close to the speed and preciscion as the ABPS
- In fact non-ABS-equiped pre 2001 Corvettes with similar HP/Torque are slower than current ABS/ABPS equipped cars
- If you learn how to drive an ABS equipped car faster you will be able to drive a non-equipped car faster.
- A car with ABS is safer than a car without, especially when you screw up. Usually on the street . ALWAYS in the wet, regardless.

That is not to say the ABS system doesn't have faults. (Remember it is a production car designed to protect an untrained driver...usually from himself).
- The dreaded ICE mode is one of it's biggest. This is when the ABS senses a large dissparity in wheel speed during braking and "thinks" it has sensed ice. On the track it is not a big deal when the ABS is first activated but rather when the next brake application is limited by a high stiff pedal....usually the next corner on a race track. The driver needs to expect this in the "Next" braking zone after ABS activation. Then he's ready for it and can over come the stiff pedal by pressing harder.
- The best way to avoid it is NOT to get into the ABS.

In fact I use the ABS while I am on the track as a device to grade my driving.
"OK Mr. Worm you just did something incredably stupid and activated me. Either:
- You are braking too late
- Braking too hard
- Are too hot into the corner
- The tires are toast (your fault)
- The car isn't set up right (your fault)
- You need to develop you threshold braking technique (your lazy)
- Too much or too little trail braking (How should I know, your the driver).

I am not critical of your impulse to remove the ABS....I at first thought so too....for the very same reasons.....too intrusive, and to save weight.

I soon learned otherwise....to not activate the ABS....I then found myself a better and faster driver.

If you improve your techniques, upgrade the brake system as a whole without removing the ABS/ABPS, and set up the car correctly you can keep the ABS and use it as an asset..... and you'll be faster.

Here's Dennis Grant's thoughts. He's a National AutoX champion. be sure and read his other chapters as well. Good info.

http:/www.farnorthracing.com/autocross-secrets9.html
 

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Discussion Starter #7
DJworm, Wow, I truly appreciate your input. I have read many of your posts and have been very impressed with your knowledge.

I think some of the allure may be as much mental as anything else. The superbly firm and precise feel of a direct braking system is, for me, confidence inspiring. I guess this makes it more of an emotional issue for me rather than a logical step towards improving lap times. That and the months I have lost off of my life from severe ABS activation while entering a corner too hot.

Your points are well taken. I will consider this before I do anything drastic.

DwjZ06, thankyou for your response. I emailed subdiver some time ago after reading some of his posts. His wife was kind enough to forward my message to him as he is deployed right now. Im grateful that DJworm chimed in with his thoughts as well.
 

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Hmmm.....
1. Although it is true that almost all of the top National level drivers turn OFF the Traction Contol and Active Handling when competing.; they do not remove the system from the car (computer, wheel speed sensors, yaw sensors). Not because the don't want to save weight...it's because, in fact, the DO use the system in the wet especially with standing water.

2. It is also true that a driver with PROPER THRESHHOLD BRAKING TECHNIQUES will consistantly turn lower lap times than a driver constantly in the ABS. However just the opposite is true in the wet.

The key here is NOT to remove the ABS but to develope driving techniques that do not activate the ABS (in dry conditions).

All of the above universally applies to race course, AutoX and street driving.

There are other reasons NOT to remove the ABS:
  • You really do not save much weight (2 pounds of sprung weight)
  • The Automatic Brake Proportioning System is far superior to any manual system you can install. It senses and adjust multiple parameters at least 10 times PER SECOND. Even if you had a navigator in the passenger seat (ala Rally) he couldn't make the correct adjustments using a manual system even close to the speed and preciscion as the ABPS
  • In fact non-ABS-equiped pre 2001 Corvettes with similar HP/Torque are slower than current ABS/ABPS equipped cars
  • If you learn how to drive an ABS equipped car faster you will be able to drive a non-equipped car faster.
  • A car with ABS is safer than a car without, especially when you screw up. Usually on the street . ALWAYS in the wet, regardless.
That is not to say the ABS system doesn't have faults. (Remember it is a production car designed to protect an untrained driver...usually from himself).
  • The dreaded ICE mode is one of it's biggest. This is when the ABS senses a large dissparity in wheel speed during braking and "thinks" it has sensed ice. On the track it is not a big deal when the ABS is first activated but rather when the next brake application is limited by a high stiff pedal....usually the next corner on a race track. The driver needs to expect this in the "Next" braking zone after ABS activation. Then he's ready for it and can over come the stiff pedal by pressing harder.
  • The best way to avoid it is NOT to get into the ABS.
In fact I use the ABS while I am on the track as a device to grade my driving.
"OK Mr. Worm you just did something incredably stupid and activated me. Either:
  • You are braking too late
  • Braking too hard
  • Are too hot into the corner
  • The tires are toast (your fault)
  • The car isn't set up right (your fault)
  • You need to develop you threshold braking technique (your lazy)
  • Too much or too little trail braking (How should I know, your the driver).
I am not critical of your impulse to remove the ABS....I at first thought so too....for the very same reasons.....too intrusive, and to save weight.

I soon learned otherwise....to not activate the ABS....I then found myself a better and faster driver.

If you improve your techniques, upgrade the brake system as a whole without removing the ABS/ABPS, and set up the car correctly you can keep the ABS and use it as an asset..... and you'll be faster.

Here's Dennis Grant's thoughts. He's a National AutoX champion. be sure and read his other chapters as well. Good info.

http:/www.farnorthracing.com/autocross-secrets9.html
Brining up old thread because I had an ice mode incident last season, and was looking for ideas on disabling ABS. this exact thing happened(from DJWorm's post above) : "
That is not to say the ABS system doesn't have faults. (Remember it is a production car designed to protect an untrained driver...usually from himself).
- The dreaded ICE mode is one of it's biggest. This is when the ABS senses a large dissparity in wheel speed during braking and "thinks" it has sensed ice. On the track it is not a big deal when the ABS is first activated but rather when the next brake application is limited by a high stiff pedal....usually the next corner on a race track. The driver needs to expect this in the "Next" braking zone after ABS activation. Then he's ready for it and can over come the stiff pedal by pressing harder." And in other posts from as early as 2001 of which I wasn't aware, it was referred to as "the infamous Ice Mode" Well, damn, it wasn't infamous to me , because 1. I had never even heard of it, and 2. apparently for 25 years my braking techniques had been excellent! Except for this oooonnnnne 360 exiting turn 12 at the Ridge. Next application of the brakes approaching the downhill hairpin, Ice Mode!!! Had no idea of how to stop, so drove, in a very puckered fashion, straight off into the dirt, toward the trees. Thankfully, .03G of decel (ice mode brake pressure limit) was enough to keep me out of the trees. So, thank you for letting me revise this old thread, maybe it will be of use to some people new to the track, learning proper varied braking techniques. I'm going to work on my brake squeeze technique , and if anybody has any other suggestions, please chime in. Happy New Track Year all!
 
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