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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So after reading everyone here say that SS lines would give a more responsive/better pedal feel (and other advantages beyond the scope of this post) I decided to install them.

IMHO these lines degrade the feel versus the stock lines, as there is now very little pedal travel between heavy braking and locking the wheels/ABS. It makes threshold braking quite difficult vs the stockers.

I could see how with race rubber (esp if the stock lines are overheated) these could offer better feel...but I find the claims that these improve braking feel with stock rubber/street conditions HIGHLY debatable. I also spoke with a very knowledgable friend who has been the vette tech for a local dealer and used to be big into the bike scene about my concerns. He noted that for the exact same reasons he used to have to take SS Lines off bikes because they made it too easy to lock the brakes and therefore you could not threashold brake to do tricks/endos. This sounds exactly like my impression.

I don't disagree with the other advantages of SS Lines, but i find the "improved modulation" comments around here pretty questionable. :NoNo:
 

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What you feel is definetly a change from the rubber lines and it may be that you need to relearn the pedal "feel".

The problem with rubber lines in brake modulation is that they are too compliant to start with and then the compliancy changes (gets worse) as the fluid heats up. The modulation rate and feedback then is constantly changing and nothing is constant.

Conversely the modulation rate and feedback is constant with braided SS & Teflon lined lines installed. The SS lines are definetely "stiffer" and thus give a more positive and precise feedback, respond quicker and need less deflection for a given modulation. But, they're constant vs. temperature changes and linear for speed and type of braking: normal. trail, threshold and progressive and in the let off characteristics.

What you are describing is probably the increased performance of the SS lines over a narrower range. SS Lines do have a smaller window and less pedal travel needed for a given modulation ie the brakes will be more responsive with less deflection. Therefore you can not use the same foot pressures as you did when you were using rubber lines. Infact it can be described as using "toe" pressure rather than "foot" pressure. The key is a smooth and gradual progressive application with then very small modulation(s).

Analogous to this is the comparison of properly driving a car with both hands on the wheel at 10 & 2 with the seat positioned so as to give proper leverage in turns and the ability and necessity to fly a properly trimmed aircraft in a very relaxed state with only your finger tips and very small adjustments. A properly trimmed Cessna and a 747 are flown in the same manner. Neither requiring 2 hands and leverage or huge amounts of delection like driving a car.

It takes fine motor skills vs. the brute force need previously.
 

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Thanks for posting.

I just bought a set of SS lines from Lingenfelter.

Reading this post may get me to re-evaluate my decision......
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
I hear what you're saying DJ, but in my previous track experience I really never had any issue with the stock lines, and the difference in modulation (and I beat on the car, trust me) was minimal hot to cold. The It may not be constant, but it's not a big change hot to cold. The decreased window between zero and full brakes is very notable. I have to use a fair amount of pressure before they engage, so it's certainly not like a trimmed aircraft with light changes doing a lot. It's more like 50lb of pressure = brakes barely engaged, and 55lb = locked up. Maybe my brakes are still not right...if it was 1 = barely engaged and 5lb = locked up I might be okay with that...but we both still admit the window of error is smaller. I'd be VERY VERY hesitant to continue describing the subjective feel as improved/better.

I actually had an accident today after making this post that could have been prevented had I not been using these crummy lines. A tahoe tried to make a blind left turn in front of a semi without seeing me in the other lane...panic brake with SS lines = lockup/ABS, when I could have controlled it otherwise. I didn't get stopped before hitting the Tahoe at about 5-10mph. He took full responsibility for the incident, but SS lines are not going to save you in a panic brake. I might not have this mess without these lines...no better illustration. I think I'm more upset that I'm missing my DE this weekend.

 

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Braking techniques

I have 2 co-drivers, Mark Andy and Scott Spangenberger plus myself. In addition my car has been tested, driven and set up with the help some very accomplished National level drivers and Natioinal Champions such as Sam Strano, Junior Johnson, Karen Rafferty & Kent Rafferty, Roger Johnson etc.

The lines are Mallett/Goodridge -3AN with -3AN connectors (NOT Banjo connectors) recommended and installed by Chuck Mallett of Mallett Cars, Ltd.

The car has been used in high speed Solo I Time Trials, Hillclimbs, National Tour Solo II, Pro Solo, local and Regional AutoX (21/21 career 1st places) and is driven on the street and interstates. It is the NE Divisional Champ for 2002 and placed 7th and 9th in the National Championships. It is by record one of the top ten best handling cars in the US which includes braking both on the track and on the street.

All of the above drivers have different driving techniques but none have ever complained about the brakes save Mark Andy. Mark's only complaint is that he brakled too late twice and engaged the ABS so hard that he invoked the dreaded "ICE Mode". I and Scott conversely hardly ever use the ABS whereas Andy is in it all the time. Nobody ever complained about the SS lines and infact have marvelled how much better the braking system is over OEM....incrediably using mostly OEM parts.

I would definetly give then a chance and get used to them.

I might suggest that your problem might also be a combination of brake pads and fluid. What are you using ??

Hey, but bottom line is, if you do not like them by all means take them off the car, clean them up and resell them. High performance isn't for everone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
DJWorm said:
I would definetly give then a chance and get used to them.
I plan to learn them (only because people like yourself seem so convinced), but right now they are a big step backwards.

DJWorm said:
I might suggest that your problem might also be a combination of brake pads and fluid. What are you using ??
ATE Superblue, DRM SS Pistons, DRM/LGM ducts, OEM Z06 Today on Pads

DJWorm said:
High performance isn't for everone.
:roll:
 

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I personall use a KFP Magnum Gold Racing Pad. These are much better than OEM pads and are used on the street, AutoX and high speed track.
They come up to temp faster, have a broader heat range, better initial bite and great release. They are Carbon/Kevlar and very kind to the rotors.

Downside is they are dustier than OEM's.

I would suggest that you learn the SS lines without further changes and then consider another pad when it's time for new ones.
 

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Curious, what tires are you running and what sizes?

I am running basically stock brakes but with Porterfield R4S pads (basically their streetable track pads), Mallett/Goodridge lines and ATE superblue. Running 275/295 Kumho MXes on the street. It's pretty hard to lock up the brakes without really STOMPING on the pedal. I've also experienced no problems with modulation at all. In fact, I really didn't even notice the 'window' changing much. The biggest thing was that the brake pedal felt stiffer, and stayed at the same stiffness despite abuse levels.

Maybe you have another issue? Maybe you're just locking one wheel everytime due to a caliper problem, or maybe you have a proportioning problem?

I really have a hard time believing you would have avoided the accident without the lines. The ABS on these cars is pretty excellent and I doubt the stopping times would have been much (if any) different. In fact, some would say that engaging the ABS would stop the car faster. Just look at the Viper braking specs before and after they added ABS. Went from one of the worst braking sports cars 60-0 and 100-0 to literally the best (or very close).

Dope
 

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DJWorm said:
It is by record one of the top ten best handling cars in the US which includes braking both on the track and on the street.
What suspension setup do you run? (sorry if you have already stated this somewhere else)
 

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Sorry to hear of your woes. Is there something wrong with your proportioning valve, ebcm or caliper/pistons?

As for me, I agree with DJ Worm. For the last four years, I've used SS lines with Performance Friction Z rated pads, slotted rotors and Motul's RBF 600. Car is driven daily as well as auto crossed and driven extensively on road racing courses. For me, this was probably one of the best mods I've done. Brakes "feel" firmer,however it still takes quite a bit of pressure to engage the ABS. Brakes are reliable and engage with no fade on a controlled, repeatable basis from speeds in excess of 100 mph.

Maybe there's more to this than just the lines.
 

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Hmm... Something doesn't sound right here. I mean, feel is feel, and there's no debating one's like or dislike of a "feeling" they get. But it almost sounds as though something just wasn't set up properly/optimally when you went to the ss lines.

I have the ss lines on my Z, and I noticed a slight change in the brake feel -- HOWEVER, I also changed lines at the same time that I changed to Eradispeed rotors, and I'm convinced that the E'speed rotors just aren't as wonderful as the stock brake set up. (They look a lot better, and that's really why I got them. But, I think that the stockers can't be beat in terms of OEM performance.)

Does my braking feel different? Yes, but only a little. And, again, I'd attribute that to the rotors and not the brake lines. I'd be surprised if the difference I'm feeling has to do with the brake lines at all. At best, I've never felt in any danger of not being able to stop the car (or locking it up/engaging the ABS prematurely) after having put the ss lines on the car. Given this, combined with what I'm reading from you, leads me to feel that something in your ss line set up just wasn't as it should be when you made the switch.

-Kirk

PS -- Sorry about your accident! That's terrible. Hope they get the car back in shape and to your liking. That's no fun!
 

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To 01Z06: OT: Suspension consists of:

- Maximally Lowered
- Corner weighted
- Comp. Alignment
- Hardbar Hardware (Titanium Rear Bolts, SS Front Bolts with Delrin Bushings)
- Penske Double Adjustable Shocks with Remote Reservoirs & Custom Valving
- VB&P Poly Graphite Bushings
- VB&P Extreme Front Spring
- OEM Z06 Front Sway Bar with T1 End Links
- OEM Z06 Rear Spring
- T1 Rear Sway Bar with T1 Endlinks
- Custom Billet Spindles & Hubs
- Blueprinted OEM A Arms
- Baer Height AdjustableToe Rod Ends with Spherical Bearings
- CCW Race Wheels with +0.25" Offset
- 305/30x18 on 10.5x18 Front
- 315/35x17 on 11x17 Rear
 

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ABS is fine until you're going slow enough that the wheels/brakes lock and you slide/skid, and generally occurs between 8 to 12 MPH so it is possible that an accident could have been avoided if ABS hadn't been triggered or not in use. In general, ABS is a better solution, and I'm sure it prevents and/or lessens the severity of most accidents.
 

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In panic stop situations, ABS controls braking much better than a driver could. ABS allows the brake force to vary at each wheel, something you can't do with the pedal alone. It guarantees maximum braking with maximum control. This isn't always a good thing on the track, but straight line, it can't be beat.

The SS lines may have changed the pedal feel, but they didn't change the forces necessary to actuate the calipers or the forces necessary to slow the wheel.
 

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RocketSled said:
In panic stop situations, ABS controls braking much better than a driver could. ABS allows the brake force to vary at each wheel, something you can't do with the pedal alone. It guarantees maximum braking with maximum control. This isn't always a good thing on the track, but straight line, it can't be beat.

The SS lines may have changed the pedal feel, but they didn't change the forces necessary to actuate the calipers or the forces necessary to slow the wheel.
I don't disagree with you if you know what is happening, but the fact remains that many, if not most, people in street/highway panic situations leave their foot pushed down on the brake pedal and at 8 to 10 maybe 12 MPH the wheels are going slow enough that the brakes effective "lock" causing a slide and bingo you hit someone. This may also be compounded by following too closely and/or the car in front is slowing faster than you. My point being that at a certain speed with ABS, you may not have maximum control over your car's stopping ability.
 
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