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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I've used toluene in the past with very good results. I had a 2002 S4 that was running very high boost and was getting lots of timing pulled which was obviously counter productive. I used to use race gas dilution, but that is a PITA when you have to go to the track to get it. Toluene did the same thing and cost less because you use less. Toluene is 114 octane. No more timing pull :cool: .

Today I mixed 3 gallons of toluene to 3/4 tank of gas, and reset the timing and fuel trims to 0. That gives you about 96 octane. You can add as much as 20% toluene to your gas and get the octane wherever you want it just about. 96 octane seems sufficient however, with my light mods.

You can also use Xylene which is 117 octane and a little cheaper but harder to find readily. There is no need to add lubrication to your fuel as long as you don't exceed the 30% limit.

Let me tell you, like my Audi this engine really appreciates it! I had detonation when I shifted at high RPMs, and some detonation up top when it was hot. The detonation is totally gone, and the car pulls much harder when you goose it, and it begs to go to redline in all gears. Knock sensor activity is next to nothing now. Also, I am noticing the traction control is more active in second gear, with all other things being equal. That can only mean one thing :jammin:

For the record, I pay 5.00 a gallon delivered in 55 gallon drums. This should be the norm on the east coast.

Here, check out this link

Rocket fuel
 

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Torco's unleaded "Accelerator" is $12.00 for 1 32 oz. can. I use 1 can per fill and it raises octane from 91 to 95.

Easier to purchase (Individuals in California cannot buy Toulene) and a lot easier to handle, and no storage problems.

Ask Andy green @ A & A Corvette's how it works on all those supercharged vettes he builds and tunes if you don't believe me :jammin:

:cheers:
 

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don527 said:
but what about j-rod's post number 8 in that same thread? :thumb:

:zboobie:

I spoke with J-Rod at length about this very thing a couple of weeks ago. He's knows what he's talking about.
 

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Ya know, I once had a GM mechanic tell me that running race fuel (101 Trick) was bad for my engine and would kill my injectors.

I kinda feel the same way when people tell me not to run Toluene or Xylene. Its the same crap they put in the damn fuel for aromatic content, the rest is filler.

Maybe if someone can show me evidence that running Toluene or Xylene is bad, I'll listen. And I mean evidence, not some anecdotal story from "my bother's friend's dog's former owner."

Until then, I'll run Toluene or Xylene or race gas as the situation dicates, without worry.

And yes, Toluene _IS_ all that. When you're stuck running 91 shitgas, and its 100 degrees out, it makes a massive difference.

When people say running 100 octane didn't help, they're most likely testing under ideal conditions for the 92 or whatever that they're running.

I've run 30% toluene in the summer in albuqerque at an Autox. I got off the track and the car was puking coolant, water temp was at 250, oil temps of 270 or so. And I had zero detonation (yeah, I still had shitloads of retard, but on 91 I have tons of retard under normal conditions).

Now, if the Torco stuff can take 91->96 for $12, I'm all ears. Is that 1 gallon? Or 18 gallons? Anyone have mixing instructions? Torcos site didn't have it..
 

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01ZEE06 said:
Torco's unleaded "Accelerator" is $12.00 for 1 32 oz. can. I use 1 can per fill and it raises octane from 91 to 95.

Easier to purchase (Individuals in California cannot buy Toulene) and a lot easier to handle, and no storage problems.

Ask Andy green @ A & A Corvette's how it works on all those supercharged vettes he builds and tunes if you don't believe me :jammin:

:cheers:
Every airport in SoCal sells 100 LL Avi fuel--just a litle mixing and your ready to go
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
No Doubt said:
:NoNo: :NoNo:

See Jim Conforti's post (#4) in the following thread:

http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66539&highlight=toluene

I went through the same debate when it was introduced to me.

But, I ran 21 psi for 90K on my S4 using toluene, and the guy I sold it to still runs the same software with the toluene. This car puts down a solid 425 AWD HP to the wheels. He now has 130K on the same 2.7 tt engine. No fuel component damage, no nothin...EGT's are always in check when using toluene. For the record, without the toluene, I had severe detonation and retard. The motor would have surely fragged without it using the aggressive software I was running, which was designed for 100 octane.

What elements of the fuel system can this hurt anyway? It is the same substance as gas, and it is the MAIN ingredient of race gas. I have never heard of it causing any issues, except longer cranking before start when its below freezing. Not really an issue for us. And we won't be using that high of a concentration for that to occur.

I respect those who are cautious when experimenting, but this is beyond debate, it simply works. If you have any detonation and timing retard and the symptoms associated with it, this will stop it, period.
 

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I've tried to buy avi fuel at local airports, but they won't sell it to me....claimed it's illegal to sell to cars.....you must be getting it at some small airport where they break the rules.

Torco comes in 1 quart cans.....32 oz.....leaded or unleaded. Or, you can buy a 5 gallon pail and a pump, but I did that and it can be real messy transferring fuel and then there is the storage problems(it's highly flammable), but it drops the cost just about in half.

The 32 oz cans are easy to use and store. If you buy enough cases( 6 cans) you should be able to get the price down. Just pour 1 quart can into your tank and then fill her up with gasoline.

Or, if you can store it, you save even more with a 55 gallon drum. Torco also sells racing fuel....you can get a 33,000 gallon rail car delivered(lifetime supply?!).

Torco is a very well known brand name and it's often displayed on signs at dragstrips or on drag cars they sponcer.

Andy Green had a red Z06 with this hugh supercharger on it and was testing it on his new dyno....all sorts of knocking and knock retard with 91 shit gas. We poured in a can of Torco and the knocking was gone. Most guys in cali with superchargers use Torco. :yeadog:
 

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I suggest reading the following article as it answers many questions regarding the use of Toluene and LL100 AvGas.

http://www.idavette.net/hib/fuel/page2.htm

but what about j-rod's post number 8 in that same thread?
His post was pasted, in part at least, from the "Rocket fuel FAQ", Copyright 1999, 2000 by Eliot Lim, whose "paper may be freely distributed, provided it is distributed in its entirety", and can be found at the following websites, amoung others.

http://elektro.cmhnet.org/~charlie/photos/cars/audi/toluene.html

and

http://www.foreverdigital.net/carinfo/Toluene.txt

and

http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/95187.phtml
 

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Correct, I did use some of the information of the Rocket Fuel Faq, as it was a lot easier to do so rather than re-write all it myself. I've been around this stuff my whole life. My family has worked in the lab for a major oil company for two generations. So, I was exposed to all sorts of info about fuels etc... from a very young age.

I read Hib's article. The whole deal about Toluene and Xylene being this big carcingenic nightmare is a wee bit overstated. I agree with the section of the article which states that mixing 50% toluene will slow down the flame front. Most of the articles on Tolunene tell you exactly that also.

Have you ever gotten gasoline on yourself?

Since its 20-30% aromatic HC at that point if it was as bad as they portray, we'd all have to have a HAZMAT suit and decon chamber to fill our cars.

Would I use 100LL in a car? Nope, for the cost I'd run super 104. If you want to run Leaded gas you need to switch to Denso o2s which are lead resistant.

In case anyone didn't read what I wrote, here it is...

Unless you need more octane (like if you live in Ca with 91 octane you won't benefit from higher octane). Octane is a the resitance to detonation. So, if you aren't pre-detonating, you don't need more octane.... Now, if you run a boosted application (like a Grand National), or you run a ton of compression, or like I said, you have poor quality gas, you can benefit from Toleuene/Xylene. A couple of things on this.

1. Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon (C7H8). i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.

2. Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.

3. Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.


Again, its a cost benefit analysis. Super 104 is sold at my local drag strip @ the pump for $4.75/gallon. I can order a drum of fuel for myself even cheaper. Of course, I can mix up boosters of various sorts to. I prefer race gas followed by Toluene/Xylene. But, thats just me. Use what works for you, and what you are happy with. I just like for folks to have all the information they need to make decisions.


Also, unless you are seeing KR, you won't see a HP increase from increased octane. Octane is the resistance to detonantion. You actually want your fuel to burn, you just don't want it burning early (pre-ignition). As for Toulene or Xylene being particularly harmful to your engine. I would disagree with this.

Q: Will toluene damage my engine or other parts of my car?

A: A 5 or 10% increase in the aromatic content of gas will most likely be well within the refining specifications of gasoline defined by ASTM D4814, which specify an aromatic content of between 20% and 45%. What this means is that if the 92 octane gas that you started off with had an aromatic content of say 30% and you increased it by 10% to 40% you would still be left with a mix that meets the industry definition of gasoline. So the above question would amount to: "Will gasoline damage my engine or other parts of my car?"

Even in the unlikely event that the 92 octane gas has a aromatic content of 45% the resulting mix would still be within the bounds of gasoline sold in other countries.


Now, Xylene tends to be a bit "dry" so, long term exposure could possibly affect some seal materials which is why some folks add a bit of lubricant (like MMO) to Xylene.
 

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I know it is one of the T's in TNT so it must go bang pretty well.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Just wanted to ring in again.

As I go through this tank of fuel, the car seems to get stronger and stronger, even in 98 degree temps. This is not placebo when the wheels break loose all the time now in second gear!

There has been absolutely no detonation, which is very unusual for these high temperatures we are getting.

There is no doubt in my mind that octane over 93 has definative benifets with these engines. :yeadog:
 
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