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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I sent Doug Rippie Motorsports, DRM a e-mail asking them if what I have been reading about the Donaldson on the '02's is true. "tom conlan" noted in a post that he had them dyno his car with the "Black Wing", and it showed a 20hp loss at high rpm. After a PCM reprogram, it showed a 20hp gain. I asked what the reason for this was and this is the response I got:

Tom,

What you have read is true and is actual results we found. The "Black Wing" is a excellent piece. The assembly flows a substantial amount more than a stock piece and GM played with the factory calibration to richen up the A/F mixture with the introduction of substantial increases in air. What this does to the '02 is create a "pig rich" situation above 5800-5900RPM. What we did to fix this was to re-program out this little GM hinderance and create more power from the great flowing Donaldson piece. To re-program , we just need your PCM and VIN#. We have the capability to program without the vehicle present. The cost for this service is $549.95. If we can help you out, let us know...

Best Regards
Tim
Doug Rippie Motorsports, DRM


Well, these guys know a lot more then I do, but if this is the true scenario, shouldn't all assemblies that flow a great deal more air cause the same loss? I thought the turbulence the Donaldson caused was the problem? Oh well, I thought you guys might like to hear what I was told.
Take Care. :z:
 

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Tom, I stopped out at DRMs last week and talked to Doug about this. He told me about the "pig rich" condition too. I didn't post it because when I posted the hp loss issue with the Donaldson a couple of weeks ago, I took some heat, and frankly, I didn't want to start another bitch session. It seems that the rich condition is the opposite of what some self-proclaimed "experts" thought. In any event, DRM does sell the Donaldson and if they say it creates a rich condition on '02s that needs programming to correct, I would bet they are dead on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Rippied,
I would agree with you. These guys know a hell of a lot more about the mechanics of the loss then I do!!:lol: My only question about the explanation is why the other intakes out there don't cause the same loss? They all flow more air. Why don't they all cause the "pig rich" condition? Oh well, my car only has 100 miles on it so it's no big deal yet. If the loss is only above 5800 rpm, I'm not going to worry about it until spring. Since you are obviously familiar with DRM, would you let them do your PCM reprogram? I see from your sig that they have done a lot of work on your car. I'm going to give them a call and ask what other things are affected by the reprogram. I still have the Bassanni off road X-pipe I took off my '01 Z, and I might want to put it on the '02. I also took my PRT's off the other car. I'm waiting to see what kind of headers are put on the market for the '02's. I left my B&B short tubes on the other car when I traded it in.
Take care. :z:
 

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Tom, DRM has both the knowledge and the equipment to do a great reprogram. They will get your air fuel ratios dead on.
 

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I know I'm gonna catch hell for this but I have to say it.

Why the hell would you buy something that causes you to spend $550 on a reprogram when you can get a Vortex or Halltech for much less that does not cause this condition and offers more power? This of course applies to the 02 in particular......

I wonder if throwing in an 01 MAF would fix it......aka screen, I'm not so sure, I still think its turbulence at the MAF causing it.

And if I understand correctly, he put on the Donaldson, lost 20 hp, then cost him $550 to regain the 20.....WTF???? $750 to break even?

Vendors, I'm sorry here but I've gotten several emails on this problem and I'm gonna post the solution, buy a Halltech or a Vortex. All of the vendors that sell the Blackwing also sell these other systems so there should be no problems.

This after we were told at Joliet by Donaldson that they guaranteed 30HP.....:mad: BS........

JC
 

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Self proclaimed or no

At least there was a problem, and is a problem, and it will only cost $600.00 to correct......
Glad SOMEONE pointed it out, or a LOT of folks would be spending hard earned $$$ to get a loss.......
I read the particular thread about the condition, and on THAT car it was too lean, could have been something OTHER than a Donaldson.........
 

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JC, the car that was tested gained about 25 rwhp over stock with the PCM reprog. and the Donaldson. That is pretty good since most after-market airboxes aren't doing that much on the '02. The reprog. is gaining several of the add'l hp, it does much more than just get the lost 20 hp back. The peak is now up 25 over the stock peak. Now as far as maf turbulance without a screen, my '01 has no screen and a Donaldson and I never experienced any issues. I don't think the lack of a screen is the issue.

The only car I know that was tested by DRM and got the high rpm hp loss was Tom Conlon's. That was the car that test pig rich. Not a lean issue.
 

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I see your point, but whos to say that you wouldn't get 25 HP from an 02 lid and a program on an 01?

Once you throw in the programming, all bets are off, and I know that 90% of this forum (including myself) will not reprogram for bolt ons.......most of all for the price of another intake....

JC
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
JC,
I took the 20 hp loss and gain to be from a base line. ie, a 40 hp swing. I bought the "Black Wing" before I knew of the potential problems. I had one on my '01 and was verry pleased with it. Do you know for a FACT that the Vortex and Halltech show gains on the big end? Above 5800rpm as DRM points out. The obvious question is if this "pig rich" condition is the problem, all aftermarket intakes that increase flow should cause the problem. Why do you think they don't? I bought the "Black Wing" from RG and I know he will take care of me whatever I need to do.
 

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Ron,

I respect all of DRM's findings. After all, he is one of the best tuners out there. I, like others, am wondering why the other cold air units don't seem to lose HP on the 02's. :-? Why is the Donaldson the only intake affected on the 02's?? :-?
 

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Frank and JC, if you remember my Topic on the hp loss with the Donaldson, I mentioned that TPiS was trying to figure why the Donaldson had the loss. Donaldson's engineers are also looking into it. I don't know if the other after-market systems show the same issue. I wouldn't believe any of the Vendors on this subject. I would want an indep. dyno test.
 

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Z06 Tom said:
JC,
I took the 20 hp loss and gain to be from a base line. ie, a 40 hp swing. I bought the "Black Wing" before I knew of the potential problems. I had one on my '01 and was verry pleased with it. Do you know for a FACT that the Vortex and Halltech show gains on the big end? Above 5800rpm as DRM points out. The obvious question is if this "pig rich" condition is the problem, all aftermarket intakes that increase flow should cause the problem. Why do you think they don't? I bought the "Black Wing" from RG and I know he will take care of me whatever I need to do.
There is no doubt that RG will stand up to the plate. With that said, its a fact that the BW is the only one with this problem on the 02's.....On the 01's its a good unit, no doubt. The only difference on induction on the 01 and the 02 is the screen......

To answer your question, one of the units mentioned does show power up top, backed with several dynos, and I'm almost positive that the other will based on 3rd party information, but don't hold me to that.....BLEUBYU has documented gains on the 02/Vortex and Halltech has the same.

I know I'm gonna catch hell from these posts but if it helps someone, that's what we're here for........

JC
 

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Rippied.Z06 said:
I wouldn't believe any of the Vendors on this subject. I would want an indep. dyno test.
Look in the PDC, there are at least 2 dynos by members not related to the vendors showing gains on both systems......

JC
 

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JC, besides the lid and maf, the '02 likely has different programming that is causing the rich condition. I would want to see a/f ratios with the dynos to know how the other systems are working with the '02s. Maybe just a Donaldson issue, maybe not. WE NEED MORE INFO! If anyone has an '02 with another intake, dyno it on a dyno that shows a/f ratios and we'll know.
 

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I agree.

But if this was occurring, you would see a HP loss at the top end regardless of the A/F chart would you not? The dynos that I've seen of both the Vortex and the Halltech show nice deltas at the upper ends.......

But as always, the more data we have the better decision we can make.......

JC
 

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N4C5S said:
I agree.

But if this was occurring, you would see a HP loss at the top end regardless of the A/F chart would you not? The dynos that I've seen of both the Vortex and the Halltech show nice deltas at the upper ends.......

But as always, the more data we have the better decision we can make.......

JC
JC, you would still want those a/f ratios. If the other systems are also resulting in a rich condition, there is a lot of hp that would be left on the table that a reprog. would: "unleash those Hooouuunds" :cheers:
 

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FWIW, it is my intention to look closely at the A/F tables as part of my next dyno session after I choose and install headers. If Doug Rippie is able to reprogram the PCM remotely after taking a look at my A/F tables and determining I am leaving ponies on the table, then I will spring for it. As an aside, I already know I am pulling some KRs at the upper end even with 93 Octane :mad: . Hopefully I can meet my modest goal of 435 crank h/p and 425 crank ft/lbs torque with just intake, headers, 172 tstat/fan controller and possible reprogram... I do not want to do more since I am planning to get a new Z in the second year of C6 production. :D

Of course, if for whatever reason the C6 Z06 doesn't do it for me, then I will be doing an LPE 427...:eek:
 

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pig rich?

I don't understand DRM's explanation of the 02's being pig rich with the Donaldson. My autotap showed the exact opposite with the donaldson-a lean condition. I kept getting lean codes from bank 1 and 2. Anyway $549 plus a $235 for a filter which equals $784 for approx 20 horses? The economy is really going for a shit. I just installed a 01 mass air with a screen and my own custom cold air set up which I will be testing tomorrow weather permitting. It will be much cheaper than any setup out there but does require some cutting though-the gains should equal any system out there. I'm looking for 118 mph trap speeds as I've already gone 116.87 with the stock box and no K&N filter. I'll post my results tomorrow and if I can get a hold of a digital camera I'll take picks to show everybody what I did.
 

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I think $550 is a total ripoff for what should be a simple calibration change. I can't imagine that this calibration tooks hours of trial and error. That's enough to drive me back to good race carbs :lol:

2002 Z06 + filter = minor change. This isn't some cammed beast with a lot of overlap that will take many calibration attempts.

Can someone give me a clue and explain why $550 is a fair price?

How well could this be corrected with a MAFT?

I'm going to buy either AutoTap or Ease PC. Haven't decided which yet.

Is it true that there aren't currently any solutions for doing your own calibrations? I've read an LS1 product is coming out Real Soon Now.
 
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