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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am curious who should win between a Z06 and ZR1? :thumb:

I was playing with a ZR1 from a 35MPH roll and all I could get is about 1/2 a fender on him, it was basically even? I was in front, but not by much.


I know they are very fast cars, but shouldn't a Z06 win, by more then say 3 feet?

90? ZR1 (342RWHP 4.10 gears)
04 Z06 Stock (360RWHP)
 

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ZR1s are a little shy on HP but make some crazy torque. At a recent dyno run a friend's ZR1 dynoed at 345.2/365.7. That would explain a ZR1 hanging with you. Don't underestimate them. They are plenty fast...stock! :yeadog:
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the replies, VetterMan and jub jub,
he's at 342RWHP and has 4.10's.

I really thought I would pull him by 1/2 a car length.
 

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I think the key to this race is how far you’re going to push it. You say you start at 35MPH, but then stop when? 1/4 mile? 1 mile? 10 miles? 100MPH? 150MPH? 200MPH?

You can easily create a race, which either car could win, depending on how you structure it. Both cars run very differently. Pushrod cars develop torque very early, while OHC cars tend to make higher torque at higher RPMs. You also have to remember that when you redline in any gear, the ZR-1 has around 3000 more RPM to play with till it redlines. That translates to HP.

A Z06 would destroy a ZR-1 off the line. 0-40 you could probably get 1 - 2 car lengths. 40 - 80 the Z06 could probably out pull the ZR-1, but not by a lot. 80 to 120 the ZR-1 would pull ahead, but not by a lot.

After 120 it's game over. The ZR-1 torque is all top-end. The car pulls harder the faster it goes. Around 170 you would see a little dot in front of you - that would be the ZR-1.

This is assuming the drivers of equal skill. Driver skill has more to do with car performance then a few extra HP ever will.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Nocturne,
The race was from 35MPH to about 115MPH.
Thank you for the break down, He did say his red lined higher then my 6,500.

after today I'm a fan of the ZR1 :cheers: I've only seen them in magazine's never first hand.

Awesome car especially when you think about it being almost 15 years old :jammin:
 

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In stock configuration, a ZR1 would not catch a Z06 until the Z06 was tapped out of its rpms in 5th, about 175 mph or so. Check 0 to 150 times published by the car mags, the Z06 crushed the ZR1. I have run at least 5 different ZR1s at many different rollons. Never had one close. The only reason that one hung around was the 4.10s. Likely he was also chipped. They simply weigh too much to hang with a Z06 stock for stock.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Rippied.Z06,

He said he was chipped! but I really didn't pay attention to that comment, I was worried about the 4.10's ( That's why we started from a roll ) I didn't want him to have a hole shot.


I'm starting to feel better. I really thought I would pull him hard!
I now have a excuse he was chipped and had 4.10's or I would of pulled him more.

Technically I did win by 3 to 4 feet anyways.

Thanks for all the ZR1 info :thumb:
 

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a ZR1 WILL not hang with a Z06. Stock for Stock. RPMS is not everything.

The ZR1 has a higher top speed but if you raced up to 175 miles(Z06 redline in 5th) you will know that it will take a lot of horsepower to overcome a better accerlating car.

The ZR1 you raced had 4.10s that makes a nights and day differnece. Race him up to 170 and you will see hi fall back quick right after he shifts to fifth.
 

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2002Z06Yellow said:
a ZR1 WILL not hang with a Z06. Stock for Stock. RPMS is not everything.

The ZR1 has a higher top speed but if you raced up to 175 miles(Z06 redline in 5th) you will know that it will take a lot of horsepower to overcome a better accelerating car.

The ZR1 you raced had 4.10s that makes a nights and day difference. Race him up to 170 and you will see hi fall back quick right after he shifts to fifth.
I raced my stock Z06 with a friends stock ZR-1 when it was new. (My ZR-1 is modified and wouldn’t be a race) I had 3-4 car lengths on the ZR-1 at 100MPH. At 130MPH he had already caught up and started passing me. At 150 as the Z06 started slowing, the ZR-1 looked likes its acceleration started increasing.

By the times my Z06 hit 168MPH, the ZR-1 had about an 1/8 mile one me and was pulling away. I have no doubt if Morzoff had continued the race beyond 135MPH he would have seen the same effect with the ZR-1 he raced.

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Comparatively my 900 RWHP Z06 (now after 427+mods) can only out run my ZR-1 until about 120MPH. After that it’s all over. But that's how a ZR-1 is, it gets faster at higher speeds, where a Z06 gets slower.

I'm not sure what ZR-1's you have been racing, or how bad the drivers were - but I have never seen a ZR-1 behave like your commenting, regardless of what rear-end it has. Certainly the 0-150 times posted by the major car magazines don’t agree with you either.
 

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Nocturne said:
I raced my stock Z06 with a friends stock ZR-1 when it was new. (My ZR-1 is modified and wouldn’t be a race) I had 3-4 car lengths on the ZR-1 at 100MPH. At 130MPH he had already caught up and started passing me. At 150 as the Z06 started slowing, the ZR-1 looked likes its acceleration started increasing.

By the times my Z06 hit 168MPH, the ZR-1 had about an 1/8 mile one me and was pulling away. I have no doubt if Morzoff had continued the race beyond 135MPH he would have seen the same effect with the ZR-1 he raced.

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Comparatively my 900 RWHP Z06 (now after 427+mods) can only out run my ZR-1 until about 120MPH. After that it’s all over. But that's how a ZR-1 is, it gets faster at higher speeds, where a Z06 gets slower.

I'm not sure what ZR-1's you have been racing, or how bad the drivers were - but I have never seen a ZR-1 behave like your commenting, regardless of what rear-end it has. Certainly the 0-150 times posted by the major car magazines don’t agree with you either.
Can you please post 0-150 times you have from magazines.

I dont mean no disrespect here so please lets keep this civilized(you seem cool so lets keep it that way :z: ) but if you 3-4 car lengths on a ZR1 at 100mph(z06 speed) it is impossible for the ZR1 to catch up and accelrate further
at 130. My friend with near 500RWHP with aggressive gearing and stick tires cant put three cars on me from 100-135. Thats something bikes might not be able to do.
 

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Nocturne said:
You also have to remember that when you redline in any gear, the ZR-1 has around 3000 more RPM to play with till it redlines. That translates to HP.

This is assuming the drivers of equal skill. Driver skill has more to do with car performance then a few extra HP ever will.
I spanked a ZR-1 this past summer! Nocturne, I hate to say it and no offense, but the quotes above make me doubt your expertise on the subject, e.g. a ZR-1 redlines at 9500 RPMs?!?! I honestly don't know the exact specs for the ZR-1, but it's hard for me to believe. You also said that the ZR-1 has all its torque on the top-end, well top-end is made with HPs not torque. Torque gets you there and HPs determine how far up top you can go. Torque falls off drastically on all cars after about 5250 RPMs. I can't imagine the the Z06 torque curve dropoff being that much worse than a ZR-1. The final gear ratio would be the only thing that would make a significant difference.

To keep from writing a book I'll just give my final $0.02... :bs:
 

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Stock LT5 redline is 7000 RPMs. Not 9500. :bang:

Yeah, he has the RPM advantage, but he forfeits that with the 4.10s. This guy in the ZR-1 was probably shifting earlier than the Z06 was.

Good race though.
 

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A-Bahn Vette said:
Torque gets you there and HPs determine how far up top you can go. Torque falls off drastically on all cars after about 5250 RPMs. :

That's not true at all. However, if you make more and more torque above 5252, the HP will increase drastically.

There is nothing magical about 5252 RPMs that says that torque will fall off after that... take a look at the F20C from the S2000 where torque stays relatively flat all the way until 9000 RPMs.

If you can make torque higher in the rev range, that will translate to more HP per the equation HP = (TQ * RPM)/5252.

The LT5 simply makes its peak torque at a higher RPM than the LS6 does, making it a more top-end oriented motor.
 

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jub jub said:
ZR1s are a little shy on HP but make some crazy torque. At a recent dyno run a friend's ZR1 dynoed at 345.2/365.7. That would explain a ZR1 hanging with you. Don't underestimate them. They are plenty fast...stock! :yeadog:
I would have to see a dyno graph where the LT5 makes more peak TQ than HP to believe it...

Their stock factory rating were like 405 Hp and 375 TQ. And while I know factory ratings mean next to nothing, I also know that an engine that makes power up to 7000 RPMs would be very unlikely to make a higher peak TQ number...... and if that were the case, TQ would likely fall off too early to make use of 7000 RPMs.
 

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Jay2002WS6 said:
That's not true at all. However, if you make more and more torque above 5252, the HP will increase drastically.

There is nothing magical about 5252 RPMs that says that torque will fall off after that... take a look at the F20C from the S2000 where torque stays relatively flat all the way until 9000 RPMs.

If you can make torque higher in the rev range, that will translate to more HP per the equation HP = (TQ * RPM)/5252.

The LT5 simply makes its peak torque at a higher RPM than the LS6 does, making it a more top-end oriented motor.
You have it wrong here too.

LT5 redline is 7200 according to supercars.net

LT5 peak torque according to ZR1.net is 375ftlb @ 4800 RPM
and
LS6 peak torque according to Z06vette.com is 400ftlbs @ 4800 RPM
 

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2002Z06Yellow said:
You have it wrong here too.

LT5 redline is 7200 according to supercars.net

LT5 peak torque according to ZR1.net is 375ftlb @ 4800 RPM
and
LS6 peak torque according to Z06vette.com is 400ftlbs @ 4800 RPM

I post on supercars.net quite often and they are frequently wrong with their information that they have. Still, I am not going to argue over 200 RPMs. :pp:

The original poster should take a look at these performance numbers on the ZR1:

http://zr1netregistry.com/ZR1_performance.htm

Now... to address the concern you bring up in the peak torque for both motors occurring at the same RPMs...

Even if the peak happens at the same RPMs, this situation could happen (it's hypothetical so don't take it at face value):

Let's say the LS6 torque drops off to 330 ft-lbs at 6000 RPMs

And say the LT5 torque stays relatively flat until 6000 RPMs and is still making 370 ft-lbs.

What's that equal? 376 HP @ 6000 RPMs for the LS6 and 422 HP for the LT5.

This shows how two motors could reach their peak TQ at the same RPM, but one can still make more peak HP than the other, even though its peak torque number is lower, and at the same RPM.

There is no question though, that the LT5 makes more torque than the LS6 does in the higher rev ranges.
 

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More info... ZR1.net says:

For 93-95 LT5 motors -

405 hp @ 5,800 rpm (366 ft-lbs TQ @ 5800)
385 ft lbs @ 4800 rpm (352 HP @ 4800)

The LS6 doesn't continue to make 400 ft-lbs until 5800, or else its HP would be 440. I was trying to locate the LS6 peak HP/RPM numbers on here, but I couldn't find them...
 

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I will try to reply to these various posts based on my experience as an owner of both cars, as unbiased as possible. I will reference the performance chart posted by Jay2002WS6, as those numbers seem accurate to my memory.

Based on those stats a ZR-1 produces roughly the same HP and torque as a Z06, in a frame that is 400 lbs heavier, with a higher top-speed, and a 0.10 lower lateral G. This is not a large gap on a stock comparison. The only large gap here would be that the LT5 engine costs about 3-4 times what the LS6 does. Another oddity is that the ZR-1 RWHP tend to be higher then the Z06’s RWHP, even though the flywheel numbers are reversed. Either case the difference is minor.

The Z06 honestly doesn’t have many problems as stock. Other then a crappy restrictive intake/filter, the stock Z06 is pretty clean. (My opinion) The Stock ZR-1 had a major tuning problem. The A/F mixtures at stock were totally messed up at high RPMs, resulting in just about every ZR-1 owner “chipping” their car to fix the lost HP and torque. I have never driven an Un-Chipped ZR-1, I don’t think comparing an untuned LT5 to an untuned LS6 is fair for either engine.

I will try to describe in text the difference in the power band of both engines. If I had dyno charts I would show them, but I don’t. The LS6 gains torque very early, it maintains a decent level until its peak, then it drops off steadily until redline. The LT5 power band is much wider. It starts much lower on torque, and develops the torque slower. It continually makes more torque the higher the RPM. (Assuming it’s chipped) The torque doesn’t rise at the same rate, but it constantly grows or levels off, but doesn’t drop off like the LS6.

This should not be anything new to any knowledgeable engine person. Virtually all OHC engines have this effect of their power band. This is why an OHC engine is crappy for drag racing and great for high-speed racing. There is a reason why NHRA car’s use low-RPM pushrod engines and blowers, and formula one cars use high-RPM OHC engines and turbos. For racing you want the power band to benefit the current race application.

Another effect of the two engines is mods. Simply put an LT5 is a much stronger engine stock then an LS6. The bottom end can handle much more HP before you need to change out internals. This is not surprising when you consider the insane cost difference between the two engines. If you added another $15,000 into an LS6 bottom end it would handle more HP too.

One huge difference between the two engines is the way they handle RPM’s. The ZR-1 at stock is poorly rated on RPM’s. Most all ZR-1 owners increase the RPM limiter on the engine, without suffering extra wear. This makes sense when your engine has a wide power band. If for example your torque was perfectly flat, and you could double your RPM, you would double your HP.

Most all “chips” increase the stock limiter by 1000-1500 RPMs. It can be pushed much higher however. My ZR-1 has the limiter set at 9600 RPM. Keep in mind that it has no stock internals, all forged. I have friends that run their ZR-1’s over 10,000 RPM without many problems.

You would never do this to a LS6. The LS6 starts loosing torque very fast above 6000, and even if the engine could handle it, your loss of torque would offset the RPM gains. It is better to gear the car to use the torque in its narrow range instead.

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Now that sums up my technical knowledge on the two engines, now you get my drivers experience.

I own both car, I drive both cars, I drive both cars all the time. My best friend owns both cars – his are almost all stock, (chipped/tuned/Bolt-ons) while mine are extensively modified. We race our Vettes for fun all the time.

Some people here have commented that they raced a ZR-1 here or there and beat it. Well I have raced a Z06 against a ZR-1 probably 1000 times, driving both cars, against a fellow race certified driver that is of comparable driving skill level.

My best friend and I enjoy racing. We do have one little problem – his wife! She actually likes driving fast, but my cars scare her. He took her for a ride in my ZR-1 years ago and she freaked out and almost divorced him. I don’t understand how a girl can like racing a 400HP car and hate racing a 1000HP car, but she does. I won’t try to understand women, that knowledge is beyond me.

The effect of this problem is that every time we go out with the wife, I drive one of his stock cars. Every time we go out as just the “boys,” he drives one of my modified cars. Most every weekend we take our girls for a run up the coast. Sometimes we take his supercars (Ferrari, Lambo, etc) but most often we take the Z06 and ZR-1 because those are the car’s I’m most comfortable driving.

The whole weekend we race each other. Then we drop the girls off to shop, and we race harder. It’s all in good fun. Some people talk about how they have had their car up to XXX speed once. We run the hell out of our Z’s every week.

That said my experience is mainly as a driver of both cars, who loves both cars. I love the Z06 for its line acceleration and cornering, I love the ZR-1 for it’s feel and top-end. A ZR-1 feels a lot like a Ferrari. The engine has that feel and sound.

Both cars are very special. From my experience I don’t see a Z06 outrunning a ZR-1 in a top speed race. I have driven 12 different ZR-1’s and probably 20 different Z06’s. I have driven both cars and different mod levels. OHC cam engines are just monsters at high RPM’s, just as pushrod engines are monsters at lower RPM’s.

These are my experiences – take them or leave them I really don’t car.
 
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